Do I “need” analog synths?

Anything about hardware musical instruments.
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Jace-BeOS
KVRAF
4913 posts since 7 Jan, 2005 from Corporate States of America

Post Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:47 am

Yeah, I saw the Behringer ARP Odyssey clone demo. Sequencer and effects. Looks interesting. They went full size, though, so it’s bound to be more expensive than Korg’s keyless desktop unit.
- dysamoria.com
my music @ SoundCloud

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Jace-BeOS
KVRAF
4913 posts since 7 Jan, 2005 from Corporate States of America

Re: Do I “need” analog synths?

Post Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:50 am

JCJR wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:57 am
So far as I know, all on your list including Odyssey are 1 v per Oct except that ms20.

Dunno how many patch points are in a modern Odyssey? My old white face was so early in the 1970s it didn't have any patch points at all till I added them. I know I added CV, gate and trigger. Both in and out for 6 jacks.
It has a gate in/out, CV in/out, and trig in/out. So that must have been a popular modification to the original that they took on as a standard feature.
- dysamoria.com
my music @ SoundCloud

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whyterabbyt
Beware the Quoth
26639 posts since 4 Sep, 2001 from R'lyeh Oceanic Amusement Park and Funfair

Re: Do I “need” analog synths?

Post Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:52 am

Jace-BeOS wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:47 am
it’s bound to be more expensive than Korg’s keyless desktop unit.
that's not really Behringer's business model...
"The bearer of this signature is a genuine and authorised pope."

Mushy Mushy
KVRAF
10653 posts since 7 Sep, 2008

Re: Do I “need” analog synths?

Post Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:52 am

whyterabbyt wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:52 am
Jace-BeOS wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:47 am
it’s bound to be more expensive than Korg’s keyless desktop unit.
that's not really Behringer's business model...
$399 is the projected price. That's MSRP too.

The 808 & 909 will be $299 each :hyper: :hyper: :hyper:
"I was wondering if you'd like to try Magic Mushrooms"
"Oooh I dont know. Sounds a bit scary"
"It's not scary. You just lose a sense of who you are and all that sh!t"

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Jace-BeOS
KVRAF
4913 posts since 7 Jan, 2005 from Corporate States of America

Re: Do I “need” analog synths?

Post Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:58 am

acYm wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 5:39 pm
I'm curious as to how you would have improved navigation between modules from the controller? any ideas?
More dedicated controls and more displays. As is, the arrow and other navigation buttons serve too many functions. I can’t even seem to select a MIDI control template successfully without refreshing my memory on the process. It says “press enter to use MIDI mode” but it seems to do nothing but take me to the template selector. There’s just not enough info and too few controls.

Each knob (and paired button) needs a display of its own, and then there’d have to be a main display for the rest of the functionality (also needing to be larger). And they shouldn’t have shipped the first version of the controller with such a poor display to begin with.

It was a great idea hampered by poor component choices. The version two controller I’ve never used but I hear that the buttons and display are higher quality. That should’ve been version one. Version one is really unacceptable. The only reason I have two is there was a crazy sale and I thought I was going to use these things a lot. Barely have.
- dysamoria.com
my music @ SoundCloud

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Jace-BeOS
KVRAF
4913 posts since 7 Jan, 2005 from Corporate States of America

Re: Do I “need” analog synths?

Post Tue Jan 08, 2019 9:04 am

whyterabbyt wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:52 am
Jace-BeOS wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:47 am
it’s bound to be more expensive than Korg’s keyless desktop unit.
that's not really Behringer's business model...
No, but it’s a lot more components and complication for a full size keyed synth, no?

Looking down at the post after yours about the projected retail price: wow! Still, I don’t need more keyboards and more desk space used up. Hm.
- dysamoria.com
my music @ SoundCloud

JCJR
KVRAF
2497 posts since 17 Apr, 2005 from S.E. TN

Re: Do I “need” analog synths?

Post Tue Jan 08, 2019 10:55 am

Jace-BeOS wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:50 am
JCJR wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 8:57 am
So far as I know, all on your list including Odyssey are 1 v per Oct except that ms20.

Dunno how many patch points are in a modern Odyssey? My old white face was so early in the 1970s it didn't have any patch points at all till I added them. I know I added CV, gate and trigger. Both in and out for 6 jacks.
It has a gate in/out, CV in/out, and trig in/out. So that must have been a popular modification to the original that they took on as a standard feature.
It became a standard feature early on in the arp runs. I don't know if CV/gate/trig was first factory built-in when they changed away from white chassis (which was fairly early on) or whether even some of the later early white Odysseys came with built-in jacks.

I apologise maundering silly trivia, but a "prime mover" as best I recall that got several local musicians to hire me to add such ins and outs to assorted synths was sequential circuits early digital sequencer box maybe their first product, much earlier than prophet 5.

Earlier sequencers had a dedicated CV knob for each and every step and it was long torture trying to adjust all the knobs to play a simple repeating pattern in-tune. It was torture just getting a single note of the pattern in-tune with the knobs.

The sequential converted analog from a keyboard into digital values and was a step sequencer remembering the digital note values. And as best I recall it could remember more than one sequence but would forget them when the power went out. On playback it converted the digital notes back to CV/gate/trig to drive an analog synth.

Feature wise it was incredibly crude by modern standards, but was very advanced in that brief time period, compared to knobby step sequencers of the time

So some musicians who saw no need to control two synths from one keyboard, wanted CV so they could hook up to the sequencer.

Dunno if 1 V/Oct requires careful calibration nowadays. Back then two synths could be very close to the same calibration but play horribly out of tune with each other from minor differences. I got a good bit of work just calibrating 1 V/Oct as close possible, and tuning oscillators to respond as properly in-tune possible to proper 1 V/Oct drive. I generally used precision voltmeter and strobotuner for that work. Basically "piano tuning for synthesizers". :)

acYm
KVRian
898 posts since 11 Sep, 2015

Re: Do I “need” analog synths?

Post Tue Jan 08, 2019 4:30 pm

Jace-BeOS wrote:
Tue Jan 08, 2019 8:58 am
acYm wrote:
Sat Jan 05, 2019 5:39 pm
I'm curious as to how you would have improved navigation between modules from the controller? any ideas?
More dedicated controls and more displays. As is, the arrow and other navigation buttons serve too many functions. I can’t even seem to select a MIDI control template successfully without refreshing my memory on the process. It says “press enter to use MIDI mode” but it seems to do nothing but take me to the template selector. There’s just not enough info and too few controls.

Each knob (and paired button) needs a display of its own, and then there’d have to be a main display for the rest of the functionality (also needing to be larger). And they shouldn’t have shipped the first version of the controller with such a poor display to begin with.

It was a great idea hampered by poor component choices. The version two controller I’ve never used but I hear that the buttons and display are higher quality. That should’ve been version one. Version one is really unacceptable. The only reason I have two is there was a crazy sale and I thought I was going to use these things a lot. Barely have.
right, that part is confusing: when it got discontinued, on the last update, they added the MIDI mode which allows Kore to be used as a generic dumb-MIDI surface, along with Mackie Control support, there's an addendum for the manual. basically, when hosting a plugin in Kore software you want to avoid that mode at all times and stay in Kore mode, where the knobs are hi-res and the buttons are programmable. when in a template, pressing Escape opens the navigator directly... Control is what opens a template from the navigator, while Enter is only used to go in a Koresound or load from browser.

I agree about the screen... instead of navigating the grid with the arrows, a touch screen would be much faster. but back then, that was cost-prohibitive.

I gotta say, I've seen hundreds of people complaining that Kore's knobs don't have a screen right next to it, but about an Elektron device's interface which is exactly the same thing, never heard a pipsqueak. for me, it wouldn't make any difference.

well, even if you end up moving away from software instruments, perhaps your Kore still isn't a loss, as you could use it either as an FX unit (have you checked out the software's on-board effects? they kick ass), or as a MIDI unit, for the unique arpeggiator and midi player.

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Jace-BeOS
KVRAF
4913 posts since 7 Jan, 2005 from Corporate States of America

Re: Do I “need” analog synths?

Post Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:52 am

I’d still like to try to make some use of it, so long as I have a working Mac with Snow Leopard on it. Effects box or synths, Kore is certainly interesting.
- dysamoria.com
my music @ SoundCloud

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Jace-BeOS
KVRAF
4913 posts since 7 Jan, 2005 from Corporate States of America

Re: Do I “need” analog synths?

Post Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:56 am

On GearSlutz, there had been a few people asking about modular patching compatibility between three of the synths on my list: Model D, Neutron, and MS-20. There were references to voltage specifications and some indication that these synths were in fact electrically NOT compatible, but I don’t grasp voltages like other people do.

Any chance that someone has figured this out and has an absolute answer to the question of “will I damage anything by interconnecting these synths?”
- dysamoria.com
my music @ SoundCloud

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S0lo
KVRian
663 posts since 31 Dec, 2008

Re: Do I “need” analog synths?

Post Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:38 am

Jace-BeOS wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 3:56 am
On GearSlutz, there had been a few people asking about modular patching compatibility between three of the synths on my list: Model D, Neutron, and MS-20. There were references to voltage specifications and some indication that these synths were in fact electrically NOT compatible, but I don’t grasp voltages like other people do.

Any chance that someone has figured this out and has an absolute answer to the question of “will I damage anything by interconnecting these synths?”
Model D and Neutron come from the same company. It would be an utter failure from their side if interconnecting those would cause any damage. Highly unprobable I'd say.

But if your still in doubt, using attenuators won't hurt. Start from zero level and slowly increase the attenuator level until you get some sonic results. Experiment from there.

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Jace-BeOS
KVRAF
4913 posts since 7 Jan, 2005 from Corporate States of America

Re: Do I “need” analog synths?

Post Fri Jan 18, 2019 4:54 am

Someone said the voltages between even the two Behringer synths differed because the Neutron was meant to be Eurorack compatible.

I guess attenuator cables are a must, just to be careful. Still, one wrong slide on the attenuator cable’s adjustment and, what, I blow a capacitor or something?
- dysamoria.com
my music @ SoundCloud

JCJR
KVRAF
2497 posts since 17 Apr, 2005 from S.E. TN

Re: Do I “need” analog synths?

Post Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:26 am

Just semi-informed guessing, but the most notable incompatibility would be CV vco tracking of the ms-20 "odd man out" not-1-volt-per-octave. As was mentioned you could get a converter for that but maybe the question: "Is it worth the bother?"

In old days the biggest advantage of exponential CV was the oscillators tended to be more tuning stable because the log or anti-log analog converters necessary parts in 1 V per octave circuits tended to be the sections most subject to temperature dependent drifts. But 1 V per Oct is generally so friendlier for pitch control that it is more pleasant less hassle to use.

Do you own a ms-20? I realize some folks like the sounds but my prejudice from first time I played a ms-20 in a store decades ago to recent listening to YouTube vids, to my taste it just doesn't sound good and I wouldn't ever want one unless as a cheesy fuzz box kind of synth.

If I wanted a beautifully refined over the top distortion beast, then perhaps the prince of such creatures is the polivoks. By analogy, maybe a polivoks is like a gibson explorer turned to 11 on a marshal stack, wheras a ms-20 is like a wimpy danelectro lipstick pickup fiberboard guitar plugged into the cheesiest possible early 1960's transistor fuzz box. Maybe a univox super fuzz with a fading battery. ;)

Less obvious incompatibilities many nicer vcf and vca are also 1 V per octave, so you can play a melody on self oscillating filter or a volume envelope CV makes a vca respond in "dB per volt" rather than linear.

An envelope generator that "sounds right" driving a 1 V per Oct filter or x dB per volt vca, won't naturally have "right sounding curves" driving simpler exponential control filter or vca, and vice versa.

I wouldn't worry about burning up circuits unless mismatches are ridiculous extreme. A properly designed gadget would have over voltage protection on inputs. But maybe you could have a source not big enough to have desired effect without amplification or too big to be useful without attenuation, or just "not sound right" driving a linear envelope into an exponential CV input or vice versa.

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Jace-BeOS
KVRAF
4913 posts since 7 Jan, 2005 from Corporate States of America

Re: Do I “need” analog synths?

Post Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:36 am

I know about the pitch format difference on the MS-20. Everyone keeps bringing this up, despite my attempts to intercept it. I don’t really care about that issue.

I am only concerned about potential to damage the electronics by interconnecting one device with another. According to one opinion on GearSlutz, based on the specifications of both devices, you could indeed DAMAGE the Behringer Model D by interconnecting it with the Behringer Neutron.
JCJR wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:26 am
I wouldn't worry about burning up circuits unless mismatches are ridiculous extreme. A properly designed gadget would have over voltage protection on inputs.
Point being, I don’t know what that level is. What is a “ridiculous extreme”? Putting a 10v output into a 5v input? More? Less?

This stuff is not intuitive and I am not savvy with electronics (as in components and voltages). I know that you can kill components with seemingly harmless voltages (I actually blew out an LED on a RadioShack 2001 electronics kit as a kid :oops:) and each of these synths seems to have different voltage ranges. I don’t even care that the “meaningful modulation range” might not be ideal. I only care about the potential to do damage.
JCJR wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:26 am
Do you own a ms-20? I realize some folks like the sounds but my prejudice from first time I played a ms-20 in a store decades ago to recent listening to YouTube vids, to my taste it just doesn't sound good and I wouldn't ever want one unless as a cheesy fuzz box kind of synth.
I don’t own one. I think I like them (I have the software version and the controller hardware). The mini is in my price range.
- dysamoria.com
my music @ SoundCloud

JCJR
KVRAF
2497 posts since 17 Apr, 2005 from S.E. TN

Re: Do I “need” analog synths?

Post Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:59 am

Would it break kvr rules to link that GS thread? Maybe interesting to read if they have easy to click links to specs.

I like GS but haven't been active over there lately, and mostly on the acoustics and mastering sections.

I don't keep up with analog synth but maybe could make sense of some of the arguments or specs if it didn't take lots of work to find the data.

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