Valhalla Vintage Verb and Room: How do you use them?

VST, AU, etc. plug-in Virtual Effects discussion
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Burillo
KVRAF
3259 posts since 15 Nov, 2006 from Hell

Post Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:16 am

Hemmick Reef wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:52 am
I find you can get the Vroom to sound quite close to VVV, although the VVV gets there quicker and it's easier to use.
They both sound very good.

On a side note... I tend to use reverb fully wet nowadays and just get the time, decay etc. right for the sound source. I find certain sources sound better fully wet then adjusted. I can never quite make my mind up with a blend. I think it sounds more authentic to a real space when wet, and the Valhalla verbs are great for that.

Are you mostly a blender or full wetter when it comes to reverb, I think it make quite a difference to the sound?
i can't imagine myself ever going 100% wet. i haven't tried this with specifically VVV or VR, but generally going 100% wet gives you 100% of reverb and none of the actual sound. to me, this sounds unnatural - as if someone recorded you in a bathroom and then did a phase cancellation removing your voice, leaving only reverberations. i can imagine it working in some circumstances (using very short reverb, or going for a particular "cave" sound), but never as a general rule - things quickly become too muddy and mushy. YMMV of course.
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djanthonyw
KVRAF
7041 posts since 20 Jul, 2004

Re: Valhalla Vintage Verb and Room: How do you use them?

Post Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:42 am

What made me decide to get rid of Room is that VVV has a dedicated Ambience algorithm which I find comes generally close to Room.
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SoundPorn
KVRian
572 posts since 24 Jul, 2018

Re: Valhalla Vintage Verb and Room: How do you use them?

Post Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:22 am

What made me take a second look at VRoom is that I'm a big Travis Scott fan particularly on how his music always has this dark ambience to it, then I heard his producer Mike Dean on Pensado say most of it was VRoom I was a lil shocked I thought for sure it was some expensive outboard reverb being used, but after diving in deeper I totally get it now.

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Hemmick Reef
KVRian
1418 posts since 10 Jan, 2005 from UK

Re: Valhalla Vintage Verb and Room: How do you use them?

Post Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:15 am

Burillo wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:16 am
Hemmick Reef wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:52 am
I find you can get the Vroom to sound quite close to VVV, although the VVV gets there quicker and it's easier to use.
They both sound very good.

On a side note... I tend to use reverb fully wet nowadays and just get the time, decay etc. right for the sound source. I find certain sources sound better fully wet then adjusted. I can never quite make my mind up with a blend. I think it sounds more authentic to a real space when wet, and the Valhalla verbs are great for that.

Are you mostly a blender or full wetter when it comes to reverb, I think it make quite a difference to the sound?
i can't imagine myself ever going 100% wet. i haven't tried this with specifically VVV or VR, but generally going 100% wet gives you 100% of reverb and none of the actual sound. to me, this sounds unnatural - as if someone recorded you in a bathroom and then did a phase cancellation removing your voice, leaving only reverberations. i can imagine it working in some circumstances (using very short reverb, or going for a particular "cave" sound), but never as a general rule - things quickly become too muddy and mushy. YMMV of course.
Yes, it's a bit of an experiment to use 100% reverb and you certainly discover the quality of the reverb algorithms.

I find it helps thicken a sound and enables it to be placed more easily when 100% wet, but importantly, it's down to tweaking the parameters to get it where you want. Also it adds the complete reverb character with source.
I've even experimented with master buss reverb 100% wet with a very short decay which helps gel a track.
But of course... I don't do this all the time :)

SoundPorn
KVRian
572 posts since 24 Jul, 2018

Re: Valhalla Vintage Verb and Room: How do you use them?

Post Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:30 am

I thought I was bad with reverb geez you said you go 100% wet on the master buss... :clap: :hihi: :hihi:
Hemmick Reef wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:15 am
Burillo wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:16 am
Hemmick Reef wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:52 am
I find you can get the Vroom to sound quite close to VVV, although the VVV gets there quicker and it's easier to use.
They both sound very good.

On a side note... I tend to use reverb fully wet nowadays and just get the time, decay etc. right for the sound source. I find certain sources sound better fully wet then adjusted. I can never quite make my mind up with a blend. I think it sounds more authentic to a real space when wet, and the Valhalla verbs are great for that.

Are you mostly a blender or full wetter when it comes to reverb, I think it make quite a difference to the sound?
i can't imagine myself ever going 100% wet. i haven't tried this with specifically VVV or VR, but generally going 100% wet gives you 100% of reverb and none of the actual sound. to me, this sounds unnatural - as if someone recorded you in a bathroom and then did a phase cancellation removing your voice, leaving only reverberations. i can imagine it working in some circumstances (using very short reverb, or going for a particular "cave" sound), but never as a general rule - things quickly become too muddy and mushy. YMMV of course.
Yes, it's a bit of an experiment to use 100% reverb and you certainly discover the quality of the reverb algorithms.

I find it helps thicken a sound and enables it to be placed more easily when 100% wet, but importantly, it's down to tweaking the parameters to get it where you want. Also it adds the complete reverb character with source.
I've even experimented with master buss reverb 100% wet with a very short decay which helps gel a track.
But of course... I don't do this all the time :)

User avatar
Hemmick Reef
KVRian
1418 posts since 10 Jan, 2005 from UK

Re: Valhalla Vintage Verb and Room: How do you use them?

Post Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:46 am

SoundPorn wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:30 am
I thought I was bad with reverb geez you said you go 100% wet on the master buss... :clap: :hihi: :hihi:
Hemmick Reef wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:15 am
Burillo wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:16 am
Hemmick Reef wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:52 am
I find you can get the Vroom to sound quite close to VVV, although the VVV gets there quicker and it's easier to use.
They both sound very good.

On a side note... I tend to use reverb fully wet nowadays and just get the time, decay etc. right for the sound source. I find certain sources sound better fully wet then adjusted. I can never quite make my mind up with a blend. I think it sounds more authentic to a real space when wet, and the Valhalla verbs are great for that.

Are you mostly a blender or full wetter when it comes to reverb, I think it make quite a difference to the sound?
i can't imagine myself ever going 100% wet. i haven't tried this with specifically VVV or VR, but generally going 100% wet gives you 100% of reverb and none of the actual sound. to me, this sounds unnatural - as if someone recorded you in a bathroom and then did a phase cancellation removing your voice, leaving only reverberations. i can imagine it working in some circumstances (using very short reverb, or going for a particular "cave" sound), but never as a general rule - things quickly become too muddy and mushy. YMMV of course.
Yes, it's a bit of an experiment to use 100% reverb and you certainly discover the quality of the reverb algorithms.

I find it helps thicken a sound and enables it to be placed more easily when 100% wet, but importantly, it's down to tweaking the parameters to get it where you want. Also it adds the complete reverb character with source.
I've even experimented with master buss reverb 100% wet with a very short decay which helps gel a track.
But of course... I don't do this all the time :)
I know it's very... 'Out-of-Box'... but I like messing with different ideas, you never know what you'll discover....

Try it... it adds a bit of fun to a day's recording ... :D

Echoes in the Attic
KVRAF
6385 posts since 12 May, 2008

Re: Valhalla Vintage Verb and Room: How do you use them?

Post Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:52 am

I haven't used VRoom for ages, haven't even had it installed as I've been fine with Aether, B2 and the NI Reverbs. I stopped using because I liked VVV more for just about everything at some point. Then I realized I liked the NI classic reverbs just as much so have used those because they are in komplete and sold VVV. But the other day I downloaded and installed VRoom since I have an NFR license and was pretty surprised by how much it thickened up an organ type pad. I actually stopped using it sort of because it was so thick, but on some sources it's just the thing. Funny thing though is that I don't really like it for authentic rooms/spaces, but it's so lush and thick for dense unreal reverb. To me it's funny that it's called ValhallaRoom, since that's not what I would use it for. Maybe some day I'll change my mind though.
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LoveEnigma18
KVRist
234 posts since 12 Jan, 2018

Re: Valhalla Vintage Verb and Room: How do you use them?

Post Sat Feb 16, 2019 1:48 am

Whoa! I am overwhelmed to see the replies. Sorry for the delay in getting back, but I took the time to read through all of them. I thank each one of you for your time and helpful ideas. Much appreciated.

The next question I had in mind was whether you use both VVV and Room in the same projects and with multiple instances, but looks like some answers already covered it. So basically I can use both of them in the same projects on different instruments either for colour, or mixing different instruments with them, right? How do you manage to avoid things getting muddy, or the tracks not sounding glued together in one same space? I hope you would understand my question. Of course, EQing the reverb is a helpful technique, but would be interested if there are some other good techniques to avoid reverb mess.

Thanks again guys! :)

NLS
Banned
17 posts since 14 Feb, 2019

Re: Valhalla Vintage Verb and Room: How do you use them?

Post Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:17 am

Delete
Last edited by NLS on Sun Feb 17, 2019 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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LoveEnigma18
KVRist
234 posts since 12 Jan, 2018

Re: Valhalla Vintage Verb and Room: How do you use them?

Post Sat Feb 16, 2019 6:32 am

NLS wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:17 am
Anyone selling their Valhalla Room?
Based on the discussion so far, it's highly unlikely that anyone in this thread would be interested in selling it. ;)

Try your luck here buddy: viewforum.php?f=43
Last edited by LoveEnigma18 on Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

NLS
Banned
17 posts since 14 Feb, 2019

Re: Valhalla Vintage Verb and Room: How do you use them?

Post Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:13 am

LoveEnigma18 wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 6:32 am
NLS wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:17 am
Anyone selling their Valhalla Room?
Based on the discussion far, it's highly unlikely that anyone in this thread would be interested in selling it. ;)

Try your luck here buddy: viewforum.php?f=43
Thanks, I'm new to this forum still have to find my way around!

User avatar
LoveEnigma18
KVRist
234 posts since 12 Jan, 2018

Re: Valhalla Vintage Verb and Room: How do you use them?

Post Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:42 am

NLS wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 9:13 am
LoveEnigma18 wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 6:32 am
NLS wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 3:17 am
Anyone selling their Valhalla Room?
Based on the discussion far, it's highly unlikely that anyone in this thread would be interested in selling it. ;)

Try your luck here buddy: viewforum.php?f=43
Thanks, I'm new to this forum still have to find my way around!
Okay, hope you have a nice time on the forum and that you get V Room soon. :tu: Try creating a topic there. :)

Winstontaneous
KVRAF
1508 posts since 15 Feb, 2006 from Berkeley, CA

Re: Valhalla Vintage Verb and Room: How do you use them?

Post Sat Feb 16, 2019 1:26 pm

LoveEnigma18 wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 1:48 am
The next question I had in mind was whether you use both VVV and Room in the same projects and with multiple instances, but looks like some answers already covered it. So basically I can use both of them in the same projects on different instruments either for colour, or mixing different instruments with them, right? How do you manage to avoid things getting muddy, or the tracks not sounding glued together in one same space? I hope you would understand my question. Of course, EQing the reverb is a helpful technique, but would be interested if there are some other good techniques to avoid reverb mess.

Thanks again guys! :)
Shorter decay times, favoring Early Reflections, and adjusting Predelay help minimize mud. Reducing BassMult control brings down the decay time of lower frequencies. On both VVV and Room, the actual Attack time varies depending on the algorithm, meaning that a Predelay setting that's good on one algorithm may not work so well for another. Also be aware that lower Diffusion settings on both plugins lead to a perception of more discrete echoes, while higher Diffusion translates to a more blurred, diffuse reverb.

On VVV, the Hall algorithms (especially Dirty and Chaotic) will tend more to muddiness for a given Decay time vs. Ambience, Chamber, Plate, and Sanctuary algos. As Room lacks a Highpass filter if you want to avoid mud without EQ, favor lower Depth settings and shorter BassMult values. Compared to most other reverbs, the Size control in Valhalla 'verbs has a really noticeable effect on overall tonality, not just Decay length of perceived space...meaning that lower Size values emphasize higher frequencies, while higher Size brings out the lows.

Long story short, all the controls interact with the algorithms and are carefully chosen to get the maximum flexibility from a minimum of knobs/sliders. I spent a few nights with VVV and Room on a couple busses while referencing the documentation here and here, it was time well spent.
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User avatar
LoveEnigma18
KVRist
234 posts since 12 Jan, 2018

Re: Valhalla Vintage Verb and Room: How do you use them?

Post Sun Feb 17, 2019 3:51 am

Winstontaneous wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 1:26 pm
LoveEnigma18 wrote:
Sat Feb 16, 2019 1:48 am
The next question I had in mind was whether you use both VVV and Room in the same projects and with multiple instances, but looks like some answers already covered it. So basically I can use both of them in the same projects on different instruments either for colour, or mixing different instruments with them, right? How do you manage to avoid things getting muddy, or the tracks not sounding glued together in one same space? I hope you would understand my question. Of course, EQing the reverb is a helpful technique, but would be interested if there are some other good techniques to avoid reverb mess.

Thanks again guys! :)
Shorter decay times, favoring Early Reflections, and adjusting Predelay help minimize mud. Reducing BassMult control brings down the decay time of lower frequencies. On both VVV and Room, the actual Attack time varies depending on the algorithm, meaning that a Predelay setting that's good on one algorithm may not work so well for another. Also be aware that lower Diffusion settings on both plugins lead to a perception of more discrete echoes, while higher Diffusion translates to a more blurred, diffuse reverb.

On VVV, the Hall algorithms (especially Dirty and Chaotic) will tend more to muddiness for a given Decay time vs. Ambience, Chamber, Plate, and Sanctuary algos. As Room lacks a Highpass filter if you want to avoid mud without EQ, favor lower Depth settings and shorter BassMult values. Compared to most other reverbs, the Size control in Valhalla 'verbs has a really noticeable effect on overall tonality, not just Decay length of perceived space...meaning that lower Size values emphasize higher frequencies, while higher Size brings out the lows.

Long story short, all the controls interact with the algorithms and are carefully chosen to get the maximum flexibility from a minimum of knobs/sliders. I spent a few nights with VVV and Room on a couple busses while referencing the documentation here and here, it was time well spent.
That's a great explanation/advice. Thank you so much. I will play around with these parameters on different source material.

Yeah, I should read the material on the Valhalla website. I have read a couple of posts there in the past and they are quite good.

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Mr. Spock
KVRist
114 posts since 4 May, 2016

Re: Valhalla Vintage Verb and Room: How do you use them?

Post Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:00 am

Owned both, sold Room after 1 year of owning both. Happy with just VVV because it does everything I need.

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