Poll: Guitar processing/sims, what do you expect from them?

VST, AU, etc. plug-in Virtual Effects discussion

What is the UI you'd consider the best?

Lots of amps, cabinets, stomps... variable routing... just like the real thing...
21
28%
Rack, with one row for amps (simple switching between them...), cabinets, effects...
18
24%
Virtual amp simulator based on parameters, same for cabinets, some effects, and presets that would make it sound similar to the classics...
20
27%
Something else - tell me :)
15
20%
 
Total votes: 74

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MeldaProduction
KVRAF
10864 posts since 15 Mar, 2008 from Czech republic

Post Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:29 am

As for latency : I wouldn't be so worried about it. Think about it - the speed of sound is about 300m per second, so 3 meters per 10ms. So if you plug a guitar into your amp (I mean HW) and forget there is sort of eletrical/physical latency in it as well (though microscopic probably), stand 3 meters away from the cabinet, you already have at least 10ms latency! And then you have the guys on stage standing 10m from it ... :) So technically if you use say 128 samples buffer in 48kHz, that would make it about 5ms roundtrip latency and put into your headphones, it would be pretty much the same thing as standing 1.5 meters from the cabinet.
What I think is more important is the "feel" - when you stand next to a cabinet, it just moves the whole body, not just ear drums...
Vojtech - MeldaProduction
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Hink
Rad Grandad
28059 posts since 6 Sep, 2003 from Downeast Maine

Re: Poll: Guitar processing/sims, what do you expect from them?

Post Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:27 am

MeldaProduction wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:29 am
As for latency : I wouldn't be so worried about it. Think about it - the speed of sound is about 300m per second, so 3 meters per 10ms. So if you plug a guitar into your amp (I mean HW) and forget there is sort of eletrical/physical latency in it as well (though microscopic probably), stand 3 meters away from the cabinet, you already have at least 10ms latency! And then you have the guys on stage standing 10m from it ... :) So technically if you use say 128 samples buffer in 48kHz, that would make it about 5ms roundtrip latency and put into your headphones, it would be pretty much the same thing as standing 1.5 meters from the cabinet.
What I think is more important is the "feel" - when you stand next to a cabinet, it just moves the whole body, not just ear drums...
I'm not sure I agree with that, my point earlier was that the latency based on distance also applies to all the instruments on stage so in fact the guitar player could indeed be getting the least amount of perceived latency from his amp compared to hearing other instruments on stage. (Latency is relative to all the other sounds). When you're in the studio and you have headphones on (which I do often or am just right in front of my monitors) the perceived latency from my guitar going through the system will be more defined, more noticeable and is in fact more of a distraction to me because there is no latency coming from the other instruments. Then of course there was another point made by another about trying to achieve the lowest latency and risking dropouts with your buffers low and perhaps losing a take. As I prefer to err on the side of caution I'm not setting my buffers on the edge or fringe.

FTR I haven't stood next to a cab with it so loud it moves my whole body in decades (I like my ears). Still 90% of the time I'm using my iso cab, but now I dont care if sound bleeds out, I'm just trying to stop unwanted outside noise from getting to my mics when it can be an issue.

Latency may not be something you worry about but it's unnatural to me, it bothers me and it is a distraction that takes away from my pleasure. Donks mentions using an amp as a reference tone which is good for someone looking to produce, I write music because I love to play guitar, not release music. My songs are written so I can enjoy playing my guitar, with my music, using my best tones during the performance because that is where I derive my pleasure from. :)
Albert Einstein may have been a genius but his brother Frank was a monster

Cooker
KVRian
760 posts since 29 Jul, 2008

Re: Poll: Guitar processing/sims, what do you expect from them?

Post Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:25 am

MeldaProduction wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:29 am
...
Its different in a home studio environment, as one can hear the strings acoustically while playing (as output on monitors or headphones aren't so high) and even the lighting is better and eyes can even notice the latency.

It's not too bad with todays usb soundcards or computers but I think this is why people want lower latency.

And I totally agree on the feel thing. To me developers started to get the poweramp feel right only 2-3 years ago which is really (maybe the most) important. Also I got to play a Boss GT1000 a week ago, (sound preferences aside) the AIRD thing really has the feel thing a step further.

Funkybot's Evil Twin
KVRAF
6049 posts since 16 Aug, 2006

Re: Poll: Guitar processing/sims, what do you expect from them?

Post Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:41 pm

MeldaProduction wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:48 am
Hey, I'm currently exploring the existing software solutions for guitarists and I'm sort of surprised that pretty much everything works by showing you pedals, and dozens of amps, dozens of cabinets etc. It's imho really hard to use. I get that it looks fancy and whatnot, but still, one needs to click like crazy to get a little change, so I'm thinking how others feel, so, a little poll hehe :D
The workflow in various amp sim packages can definitely be clunky. Lots of clicking, menus, different screens, editors, etc. I suspect a lot has to do with guitar players being a relatively dim bunch (myself included) and being fooled by shiny graphics and skeuomorphic GUI's.

My ideal amp sim would:

1. Sound awesome.

2. Be hard to make sound bad. I have 4 tube amps, and getting tones is usually as simple as plugging in and adjusting the gain, bass, and treble a bit based on what guitar I'm playing. Amp sims are much fussier. Much more tweaking required. Particularly with input gain.

3. If I were changing amp "types" the settings would remain consistent. For instance, I hate when I've got a Fender amp A cranked on the edge of breakup, change to Fender amp B and the gain is set to 2 and it's completely clean. Now I need to adjust all the knobs to get back in the ballpark.

4. It would open with the last setting I used. This is kind of dumb, but I was thinking about this recently, part of the reason I quickly get good sounds out of my real amps is because when I turn it on, the knobs are exactly where I last had them. Maybe this is something amp sims should try to replicate. Or maybe "amp default presets" are the way to go. Same for pedals. I don't move the settings on my Pro-Co Rat. I turn it on, and it's exactly the distortion sound I expect. Maybe that negates the need for #3.

5. The ideal amp sim would include things like the vibrato channels, spring reverb, bright switches, etc. of the actual amps modeled (if any).

6. It would host VST plugins. Don't assume your spring reverb will be the best. Don't assume your Tube Screamer will be the best. Make it easy for me to put Twangstrom in between the amp and the cabinet if I want. Or load a third party IR plugin within the amp sim.

7. Would do some cabinet modeling in addition to IR's. Static IR's can be a little flat, but a good amp sim will figure out how to model the air being pushed. SKNote's new amps sound very dynamic. They're doing something with the cabinet models that I like.

8. Let me move microphones, let me phase-lock microphone pairs, include an ambient microphone with some room tone.

9. Would do a few amps REALLY well versus trying to modeling 50 amps. Give me a Bassman for blues, a Twin Reverb or Princeton Reverb for American cleans, Vox AC30 for British invasion type tones, Marshall JTM or Plexi for British blues/rock, Marshall JCM 800 for crunchier tones, and a modern Metal amp (Triple Rectifier or ENGL or whatever).

10. Would have a good single screen workflow. It wouldn't waste space with racks or virtual rooms and lots of tabbing or (even worse) scrolling. If I've got to do horizontal scrolling, I'm getting angry.

Anyway, just some random musings. I'm thinking about things I like or dislike about working with various amp sims versus real amps.

marzelli
KVRist
45 posts since 13 May, 2018

Re: Poll: Guitar processing/sims, what do you expect from them?

Post Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:48 pm

Funkybot's Evil Twin wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:41 pm
The workflow in various amp sim packages can definitely be clunky. Lots of clicking, menus, different screens, editors, etc.
Totally different from melda plugins :lol: :lol: :lol:

It should sound realistsic and not give too many options.

Funkybot's Evil Twin
KVRAF
6049 posts since 16 Aug, 2006

Re: Poll: Guitar processing/sims, what do you expect from them?

Post Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:50 pm

marzelli wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:48 pm
Funkybot's Evil Twin wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:41 pm
The workflow in various amp sim packages can definitely be clunky. Lots of clicking, menus, different screens, editors, etc.
Totally different from melda plugins :lol: :lol: :lol:

It should sound realistsic and not give too many options.
Yep, I don't click with the Melda GUI's either, but I'm just trying to answer the question honestly.

ozonepaul
KVRist
70 posts since 18 Mar, 2007 from London

Re: Poll: Guitar processing/sims, what do you expect from them?

Post Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:59 am

MeldaProduction wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:48 am
Hey, I'm currently exploring the existing software solutions for guitarists and I'm sort of surprised that pretty much everything works by showing you pedals, and dozens of amps, dozens of cabinets etc. It's imho really hard to use. I get that it looks fancy and whatnot, but still, one needs to click like crazy to get a little change, so I'm thinking how others feel, so, a little poll hehe :D
I think it's great that a developer directly contacts it's target users to try to figure out what actual players would like to use. If I were you, I would do a serious research on the most well known guitar forums and I would also contact directly some "big name/great..." players/producers.
Here is a list of some well known guitar forums, I hope it helps:

1. https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/
2. http://www.guitarnoise.com/forums/
3. http://www.fenderforum.com/forum.html
4. http://sevenstring.org/
5. http://www.tdpri.com/forums/
6. http://forum.gibson.com/
7. https://www.thegearpage.net/board/index.php?s=
8. https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/index.php
9. http://www.marshallforum.com/
10. https://www.gearslutz.com/board/so-many ... ttle-time/

Magnut
KVRist
56 posts since 14 Mar, 2017

Re: Poll: Guitar processing/sims, what do you expect from them?

Post Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:29 am

I've been waiting for this little baby: https://www.bluecataudio.com/Products/Product_ReGuitar/
BCA has proven they found a good spot between nice sound, flexibility, complexity and user friendlyness.

mumpcake
KVRian
783 posts since 27 Aug, 2004

Re: Poll: Guitar processing/sims, what do you expect from them?

Post Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:50 pm

I want Guitar Rig with better amp sims. And an MXR chorus.

Or maybe Amplitube with a rack style interface and better reverbs.

Or how about S-Gear with an AC-30 like module and more effects?

If you can come up with something in that range, I might be interested.
Even if the piano player can't play, keep the party going.
http://www.soundclick.com/mumpcake
https://mumpfucious.wordpress.com/

deastman
KVRAF
6997 posts since 7 Aug, 2003 from San Francisco Bay Area

Re: Poll: Guitar processing/sims, what do you expect from them?

Post Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:56 pm

I’m not sure I understand the poll options. These days I’m using a Helix floorboard and love the UI, both on the device and in the computer editor. Which poll option is that?
Incomplete list of my gear: 110V AC to 12V DC 1.5A power supply (+ tip)

mmann
KVRer
15 posts since 22 Nov, 2015

Re: Poll: Guitar processing/sims, what do you expect from them?

Post Sat Feb 23, 2019 8:23 am

deastman wrote:
Thu Feb 21, 2019 6:56 pm
I’m not sure I understand the poll options. These days I’m using a Helix floorboard and love the UI, both on the device and in the computer editor. Which poll option is that?
The last option: "Something else - tell me :)"

Personally, I find Helix Native has the worst interface I have ever run across. My favourite is Amplitube, but not the routing options being numbers only.

jens
KVRAF
19142 posts since 12 Jul, 2003 from West Caprazumia

Re: Poll: Guitar processing/sims, what do you expect from them?

Post Sat Feb 23, 2019 11:46 am

MeldaProduction wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:29 am
. So if you plug a guitar into your amp (I mean HW) and forget there is sort of eletrical/physical latency in it as well (though microscopic probably), stand 3 meters away from the cabinet, you already have at least 10ms latency!
No, not at least - approximately. The speed of sound depends on temperature, etc. - but either way - who is standing that far away from their amps?

Correct - those on big stages who use to stand right in front of their monitors.

Besides. to have 10ms roundtrip you need to have 5ms input and 5ms output latency, which isn't really a lot.


Get yourself informed! ;-)

Can't wait for your Turbo Amp which will of course be everything the world has been waiting for, will have the most advanced interface on the market and will totally blow all the competition out of the water.
" It is a measurable fact. Not my opinion. And not even subtle. If you can't hear difference in tail between Valhalla and VSR reverb tail then again change your job dude." kmonkey

rifke
KVRer
3 posts since 23 Apr, 2011 from Netherlands

Re: Poll: Guitar processing/sims, what do you expect from them?

Post Sun Feb 24, 2019 11:32 am

AUTO-ADMIN: Non-MP3, WAV, OGG, SoundCloud, YouTube, Vimeo, Twitter and Facebook links in this post have been protected automatically. Once the member reaches 5 posts the links will function as normal.
I am a happy UAD user. But also really like the sknote sims. Simple but tight/dense sounding.

https://www.sknoteaudio.com (https://www.sknoteaudio.com)

no affiliation btw.

User avatar
MeldaProduction
KVRAF
10864 posts since 15 Mar, 2008 from Czech republic

Re: Poll: Guitar processing/sims, what do you expect from them?

Post Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:55 am

Thanks for the feedback folks!

Hink: I actually think you feel the sound with your body even if you are not fully aware of it. Then there's of course the skull, which ultimately leads to the ears etc. You don't need to be on a techno party to feel the sound, though you'd definitely feel it there :D, a bit too much for my taste really :D
As for latency, I don't know, but I think it's one of the negativized topics - personally when I play electric drums, then I need roundtrip at most 5ms, for guitar I'm usually fine with a little more, then it starts feeling weird. Perhaps you are just much faster than me! :D I have never been too fast, oh well.. :D But I have a solid sense of rhythm, so I think I should be able to tell. But who knows, maybe it's really about the latency being changed when you walk, or perhaps it's just in our heads - if you know there's some digital machine in the middle... But the reality imho is that there's always some machine in the middle, that delays stuff and the only question is how much is acceptable.

ozonepaul: Cool, thanks for the links!

jens: Why so hostile? Anyways I wasn't originally creating the poll for sake of development, but I got a new 7string :D, and I'm in a mood for something hard, and whatever I tried I just didn't like... so I thought let's see what others would recommend. It all felt like I would need to spend my life trying to get some reasonable sound... Unfortunately it stays the same way, so it looks like I'm going to make myself a guitar plugin haha :D. Some Kuassa seems the best for me now (despite being ugliest :D ).
Vojtech - MeldaProduction
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User avatar
Hink
Rad Grandad
28059 posts since 6 Sep, 2003 from Downeast Maine

Re: Poll: Guitar processing/sims, what do you expect from them?

Post Mon Feb 25, 2019 1:57 pm

MeldaProduction wrote:
Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:55 am
Thanks for the feedback folks!

Hink: I actually think you feel the sound with your body even if you are not fully aware of it. Then there's of course the skull, which ultimately leads to the ears etc. You don't need to be on a techno party to feel the sound, though you'd definitely feel it there :D, a bit too much for my taste really :D
As for latency, I don't know, but I think it's one of the negativized topics - personally when I play electric drums, then I need roundtrip at most 5ms, for guitar I'm usually fine with a little more, then it starts feeling weird. Perhaps you are just much faster than me! :D I have never been too fast, oh well.. :D But I have a solid sense of rhythm, so I think I should be able to tell. But who knows, maybe it's really about the latency being changed when you walk, or perhaps it's just in our heads - if you know there's some digital machine in the middle... But the reality imho is that there's always some machine in the middle, that delays stuff and the only question is how much is acceptable.

I think you do miss one point, I dont know if I could handle 10ms of latency because I would never run my machine at such a spec and risk dropouts. My ASIO buffer is at 1024 26ms in, 24ms out and that's where I am comfortable running my system. This sudden 10ms number that has been brought into play is not even close to the typical standards. It's just not there yet, which really was what I was looking to have answered so I thank you. :)

edit: about feel? I hear what you're saying but there is a big difference between the feel of raindrops on your head and getting hit by a truck :clown:
Albert Einstein may have been a genius but his brother Frank was a monster

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