Accidental Plagiarising?

Chords, scales, harmony, melody, etc.
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jancivil
KVRAF
17545 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Post Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:45 am

"And it's not just an issue of individual fortitude: arts organizations are reluctant to provide funding"
Relying on funding is a matter of individual fortitude in the biggest way. To make some music, you need an organization to.. do what?
Once you're dependent on that shit you may have to suit everything you do to satisfy some irrelevant criterion or other.


"young people often scream 'cultural appropriation' at me and tell me to knock it off"
Telling people to f**k off is a matter of strong enough agency which really you're going to have to have in this world, it's basic to fully individuate and become YOURSELF.

Look, I'm a huge liberal. I don't buy this as mainstream politics whatsoever. I have seen a little of it on the Facebook but most of my activity there is political and it looks like to me you're really overstating something from a certain not-trivial filter.


You can go to Berklee's Youtube channel and get a different perspective on the world of music than that.
Last edited by jancivil on Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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donkey tugger
Boss Lovin' DR
5397 posts since 15 Mar, 2002 from the grimness of yorkshire

Re: Accidental Plagiarising?

Post Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:46 am

Strangely, no-one has ever accused me of 'cultural appropriation' when playing the Variax banjo model. :hihi:

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jancivil
KVRAF
17545 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: Accidental Plagiarising?

Post Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:51 am

I come from a musical milieu that is so not defined white people culture, and nobody cares where or how you were born. The notion is absurd, reactionary, poseur city.

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telecode
KVRist
350 posts since 24 Mar, 2015 from Toronto, Canada

Re: Accidental Plagiarising?

Post Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:59 am

Ou_Tis wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:21 pm
telecode wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:57 pm
killahpl wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:47 am
Protocol_b wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:35 am
There are only a set amount of notes, scales, and modes. Disregarding microtonal stuff, which is outside my understanding and experience, it is inevitable that over centuries of time and countless compositions, any given series of musical thingumbobs has been hit upon before you even began. Shrug it off, keep your ethics engaged and enjoy. I view the arrangement as my safe space.
That's true, there's a limited amount of notes etc. My ethics were fully engaged, but all that got me was getting accused of ripping off Pirates of the Carribean ;)
I think with the continued migrations of people from asia to the west, there will be a greater mixing of styles and genres with Eastern musical traditions. More movement in more diverse rhythms and micro tonal music. This should open up possibilities for greater originality. I am already seeing lots of Iranian and Arabic music communities in my area. It's opening up some very interesting opportunities.
This would be happening much faster if not for the hysteria over cultural appropriation. It's gotten to the point where any novel imitation or influence from a "non-white" ethnicity other than one's own (or even anything that could be mistaken for such influence) will be condemned as cultural misappropriation, and even purchased or authorized samples need to be screened based on their original cultural meaning, or else condemned as oppression or "cultural colonialism". For example, many of my "white" Jewish friends have now retreated from their interests in East Asian, Arabic, and indigenous Latin American cultures to focus on aspects of American Jewish identity. Meanwhile, conservatives have become more xenophobic.
Hmm. interesting, So your concern is that if you try to be original by mixing other cultures music into your own (even a culture that is actually part of your social fabric here) you will get discredited by SJW type's for "stealing" culture?

Up here, West Indian Caribbean culture has been thriving and flourishing since the 50s. A lot of "beats" you hear in pop hip-hop is actually their beats, rooted in soca music. I don't see anyone up in arms over it here. They are grooving away to it.

My prediction is, the new cultures that have migrated in the last 10 to 15 years (Iranian, Egyptian, Lebanese) will most probably find their influences creeping more and more into mainstream music. I am surprised the South East Asian influences haven't creeped in yet -- those communities have been firmly established since the mid 90s. I guess you got to give it some more time.
Just a keep on a goin' a forward, without a single ounce of fear
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telecode
KVRist
350 posts since 24 Mar, 2015 from Toronto, Canada

Re: Accidental Plagiarising?

Post Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:02 pm

donkey tugger wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:46 am
Strangely, no-one has ever accused me of 'cultural appropriation' when playing the Variax banjo model. :hihi:
Someone gonna have to kick her ass. How dare she mis-appropriate the mighty Zep. :-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cozHT9QaFJo
Just a keep on a goin' a forward, without a single ounce of fear
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vurt
addled muppet weed
41792 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass

Re: Accidental Plagiarising?

Post Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:15 pm

donkey tugger wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:46 am
Strangely, no-one has ever accused me of 'cultural appropriation' when playing the Variax banjo model. :hihi:
play some reggae on it :hihi:

don't do the accent though :o

User avatar
donkey tugger
Boss Lovin' DR
5397 posts since 15 Mar, 2002 from the grimness of yorkshire

Re: Accidental Plagiarising?

Post Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:16 pm

vurt wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:15 pm


don't do the accent though :o
Too late.... :hihi:

http://www.bennyleeds7.myfreeola.uk/01- ... yt-mcs.mp3

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vurt
addled muppet weed
41792 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass

Re: Accidental Plagiarising?

Post Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:17 pm

:scared:

Ou_Tis
KVRist
249 posts since 10 Jul, 2018

Re: Accidental Plagiarising?

Post Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:45 pm

telecode wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:59 am
Ou_Tis wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:21 pm
telecode wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:57 pm
killahpl wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:47 am
Protocol_b wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:35 am
There are only a set amount of notes, scales, and modes. Disregarding microtonal stuff, which is outside my understanding and experience, it is inevitable that over centuries of time and countless compositions, any given series of musical thingumbobs has been hit upon before you even began. Shrug it off, keep your ethics engaged and enjoy. I view the arrangement as my safe space.
That's true, there's a limited amount of notes etc. My ethics were fully engaged, but all that got me was getting accused of ripping off Pirates of the Carribean ;)
I think with the continued migrations of people from asia to the west, there will be a greater mixing of styles and genres with Eastern musical traditions. More movement in more diverse rhythms and micro tonal music. This should open up possibilities for greater originality. I am already seeing lots of Iranian and Arabic music communities in my area. It's opening up some very interesting opportunities.
This would be happening much faster if not for the hysteria over cultural appropriation. It's gotten to the point where any novel imitation or influence from a "non-white" ethnicity other than one's own (or even anything that could be mistaken for such influence) will be condemned as cultural misappropriation, and even purchased or authorized samples need to be screened based on their original cultural meaning, or else condemned as oppression or "cultural colonialism". For example, many of my "white" Jewish friends have now retreated from their interests in East Asian, Arabic, and indigenous Latin American cultures to focus on aspects of American Jewish identity. Meanwhile, conservatives have become more xenophobic.
Hmm. interesting, So your concern is that if you try to be original by mixing other cultures music into your own (even a culture that is actually part of your social fabric here) you will get discredited by SJW type's for "stealing" culture?

Up here, West Indian Caribbean culture has been thriving and flourishing since the 50s. A lot of "beats" you hear in pop hip-hop is actually their beats, rooted in soca music. I don't see anyone up in arms over it here. They are grooving away to it.

My prediction is, the new cultures that have migrated in the last 10 to 15 years (Iranian, Egyptian, Lebanese) will most probably find their influences creeping more and more into mainstream music. I am surprised the South East Asian influences haven't creeped in yet -- those communities have been firmly established since the mid 90s. I guess you got to give it some more time.
I don't know about Toronto, but there have been some high-profile cases in Montreal and Vancouver. For example, a musical about slavery in Montreal was shut down for appropriating 19th century African-American slave songs and having most of the slaves be played by white performers:

"At the show’s premiere last week, protesters heckled, jeered and blocked theatergoers, mostly older and white, as they tried to enter the performance at the Théâtre du Nouveau Monde in downtown Montreal. The protesters chanted 'Shame! Shame! Shame!,' 'Dirty racists!' 'White supremacists!' Police cleared the way for the audience."

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/04/arts ... laves.html

In Spain recently, Rosalía's "cultural appropriation" of flamenco influences has been condemned in newspapers and by activists:

"the singer is not from Andalucía, the home of flamenco. She is Catalan [...] some Catalans pride themselves on being more 'European' than their neighbors to the south. To my understanding, this was code for 'whiter' than the people whose heritage more clearly reflect Romani, or gitano (gypsy) influences. It seemed curious that Rosalía would be echoing the music and language of the people so often discriminated against in Catalonia.

But the case turns out to be more complex. Rosalía has a degree in traditional flamenco music from the Escuela Superior de Música de Cataluña (or the Catalan Superior School of Music), and El mal querer is her final student project. She is no stranger to the ins and outs of the genre. And of course, I’d like to imagine her as one of the majority of Catalans I met, those who didn’t hold prejudice against their neighbors to the South.

Why the backlash, then? One pro-gitano activist, Noelia Cortés, takes issue with what she sees as Rosalía being the only palatable (read: white) version of flamenco with international appealand with Rosalía’s use of an Andalusian-inspired aesthetic and symbolism (like the bullfighting school featured in the video for “Malamente”). This casts a harsh pall over Rosalía’s massive, almost unblemished success, but the history of racism Cortés cites against Romani people, with whom flamenco is intimately intertwined, is nothing debatable."

https://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/music/w ... n-11073106

Ou_Tis
KVRist
249 posts since 10 Jul, 2018

Re: Accidental Plagiarising?

Post Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:16 pm

On reggae: last month the lawsuit against Miley Cyrus for "stealing" the lyrical phrase "we run things, things don't run we" was ruled non-spurious and is going forward:

"In 1988, he incorporated the phrase into a song called 'We Run Things,' in which it is repeated nine times. It is repeated three times in Cyrus' 2013 song, and May alleges the songwriters and producers have publicly stated they incorporate Caribbean culture and melodies into their work."

https://www.billboard.com/articles/news ... iley-cyrus

Granted, the suit is based on May's claim that his usage was sufficiently original for him to claim copyright protection. But denunciations for cultural appropriation of Jamaican and black culture did lead Cyrus to abandon the salient reggae and hip-hop influences on her work.

Reggae used to be very popular among white people in the United States, but its popularity seemed to decline drastically around the same time that accusations of cultural appropriation became prominent.

In the US, more stringent copyright standards are applied to the use of melody or cadence if the words also match: "a court determined that the use of a four-note phrase, together with three of the words accompanying those notes, would have been sufficient to constitute infringement."

https://preview.tinyurl.com/y37c3e28
Last edited by Ou_Tis on Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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telecode
KVRist
350 posts since 24 Mar, 2015 from Toronto, Canada

Re: Accidental Plagiarising?

Post Fri Mar 15, 2019 3:36 pm

Ou_Tis wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:45 pm
telecode wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:59 am
Ou_Tis wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:21 pm
telecode wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 12:57 pm
killahpl wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:47 am
Protocol_b wrote:
Thu Mar 14, 2019 6:35 am
There are only a set amount of notes, scales, and modes. Disregarding microtonal stuff, which is outside my understanding and experience, it is inevitable that over centuries of time and countless compositions, any given series of musical thingumbobs has been hit upon before you even began. Shrug it off, keep your ethics engaged and enjoy. I view the arrangement as my safe space.
That's true, there's a limited amount of notes etc. My ethics were fully engaged, but all that got me was getting accused of ripping off Pirates of the Carribean ;)
I think with the continued migrations of people from asia to the west, there will be a greater mixing of styles and genres with Eastern musical traditions. More movement in more diverse rhythms and micro tonal music. This should open up possibilities for greater originality. I am already seeing lots of Iranian and Arabic music communities in my area. It's opening up some very interesting opportunities.
This would be happening much faster if not for the hysteria over cultural appropriation. It's gotten to the point where any novel imitation or influence from a "non-white" ethnicity other than one's own (or even anything that could be mistaken for such influence) will be condemned as cultural misappropriation, and even purchased or authorized samples need to be screened based on their original cultural meaning, or else condemned as oppression or "cultural colonialism". For example, many of my "white" Jewish friends have now retreated from their interests in East Asian, Arabic, and indigenous Latin American cultures to focus on aspects of American Jewish identity. Meanwhile, conservatives have become more xenophobic.
Hmm. interesting, So your concern is that if you try to be original by mixing other cultures music into your own (even a culture that is actually part of your social fabric here) you will get discredited by SJW type's for "stealing" culture?

Up here, West Indian Caribbean culture has been thriving and flourishing since the 50s. A lot of "beats" you hear in pop hip-hop is actually their beats, rooted in soca music. I don't see anyone up in arms over it here. They are grooving away to it.

My prediction is, the new cultures that have migrated in the last 10 to 15 years (Iranian, Egyptian, Lebanese) will most probably find their influences creeping more and more into mainstream music. I am surprised the South East Asian influences haven't creeped in yet -- those communities have been firmly established since the mid 90s. I guess you got to give it some more time.
I don't know about Toronto, but there have been some high-profile cases in Montreal and Vancouver. For example, a musical about slavery in Montreal was shut down for appropriating 19th century African-American slave songs and having most of the slaves be played by white performers:

"At the show’s premiere last week, protesters heckled, jeered and blocked theatergoers, mostly older and white, as they tried to enter the performance at the Théâtre du Nouveau Monde in downtown Montreal. The protesters chanted 'Shame! Shame! Shame!,' 'Dirty racists!' 'White supremacists!' Police cleared the way for the audience."

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/04/arts ... laves.html

In Spain recently, Rosalía's "cultural appropriation" of flamenco influences has been condemned in newspapers and by activists:

"the singer is not from Andalucía, the home of flamenco. She is Catalan [...] some Catalans pride themselves on being more 'European' than their neighbors to the south. To my understanding, this was code for 'whiter' than the people whose heritage more clearly reflect Romani, or gitano (gypsy) influences. It seemed curious that Rosalía would be echoing the music and language of the people so often discriminated against in Catalonia.

But the case turns out to be more complex. Rosalía has a degree in traditional flamenco music from the Escuela Superior de Música de Cataluña (or the Catalan Superior School of Music), and El mal querer is her final student project. She is no stranger to the ins and outs of the genre. And of course, I’d like to imagine her as one of the majority of Catalans I met, those who didn’t hold prejudice against their neighbors to the South.

Why the backlash, then? One pro-gitano activist, Noelia Cortés, takes issue with what she sees as Rosalía being the only palatable (read: white) version of flamenco with international appealand with Rosalía’s use of an Andalusian-inspired aesthetic and symbolism (like the bullfighting school featured in the video for “Malamente”). This casts a harsh pall over Rosalía’s massive, almost unblemished success, but the history of racism Cortés cites against Romani people, with whom flamenco is intimately intertwined, is nothing debatable."

https://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/music/w ... n-11073106
very interesting stuff. i didnt know either of those stories and nether do i understand it. i was weened on the world music labels of yore. if you were looking for new ideas, the world music catalog of artists was a great avenue to explore.

with all the new truth and reconciliation stuff going on, i can see the possibility of some indigenous communities having issues. i guess using ideas from native american drumming might be a no no as well one day.
Just a keep on a goin' a forward, without a single ounce of fear
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fmr
KVRAF
8510 posts since 16 Mar, 2003 from Porto - Portugal

Re: Accidental Plagiarising?

Post Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:00 pm

Ou_Tis wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:45 pm
Why the backlash, then? One pro-gitano activist, Noelia Cortés, takes issue with what she sees as Rosalía being the only palatable (read: white) version of flamenco with international appealand with Rosalía’s use of an Andalusian-inspired aesthetic and symbolism (like the bullfighting school featured in the video for “Malamente”). This casts a harsh pall over Rosalía’s massive, almost unblemished success, but the history of racism Cortés cites against Romani people, with whom flamenco is intimately intertwined, is nothing debatable."

https://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/music/w ... n-11073106
I don't know who Paula Ibieta is, but she doesn't seem to be spanish. If she was spanish, she would know that the problems in Spain are not connected with racism, but with politics, and the fact that the catalans sem to have a majority in favor of separating from Spain, which Andalusians take really seriously.

Historically, Andalusia was conquered just in the end of the XVth century (in 1492). It was under Moorish rule until then. Catalonia was independent almost until that date (It was ruled by the king of Aragon, but it was an independent county, not part of Aragon.

The marriage of the King Fernando of Aragon with Queen Isabel of Castilla, and then the conquer of Granada and the expel of the moors from Andalusia were the facts that led to the born of modern Spain.

That's why Catalans may say they are "more" European than the Andalusian, because 500 years ago they were still "Africans". But I never saw that fact referred (and they are our neighbors, and we usually are very aware of everything that happens in Spain). So, I don't believe that's really a problem, and if there are some Catalans that say that, they aren't at all representative of the region. However, the fact Catalonia wants to separate from Spain now aggravated the tensions. Anyway, only a moron would call that "racism".

For example - I live in the North of Portugal. There is a strong rivalry between Porto and Lisbon (the capital - as there is between Barcelona and Madrid, and Seville and the others to some extent, too). We have the habit of calling "moors" to the people of Lisbon. Is that "racism" too? Come on, give me a break. People are becoming paranoid. They know it, and they call us "galicians" (which actually is historically truth, since we were, in the past, united with what is now Galicia, and we are basically the same people).

Most of the problems in Europe are political, which in Europe is a "very" complicated subject, due to past History. Remember what happened in the Balkans? Was that racism, too? Between white and white? In the worst case, you could call that "tribalism" (which is actually much closer to the real reason of the problems in Europe, since Europe is an incredible pot with dozens of "tribes" that co-existed with episodes of more and less violent conflicts across the centuries). The "tribal" consciousness (which isn't necessarily "nationalistic" since nations in Europe rarely have just one "tribe"), never disappeared completely, and it seems to be raising again in the last few years.

The fact that a few people (who don't represent almost anyone except themselves) are given voice in the media doesn't change the fact they are a minority with very little representation. Besides, Andalusian turned right in the last elections, and PSOE (the Socialist Party, which was ruling the region since the restoration of democracy in the seventies), lost the elections and was sent to the opposition. These voices usually come from extreme left-wing groups.

Another fact. Nobody calls the gypsies "romani" around here. They are "gitanos" (in Portuguese "ciganos" - meaning gypsies). And I don't have knowledge that Rosalia may have been hurt in any way by any accusations of "cultural appropriation". We have zealots here in Portugal too. They make some noise, but people usually don't care, and pay little attention to them.
Last edited by fmr on Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:32 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Fernando (FMR)

User avatar
Unaspected
KVRist
492 posts since 4 May, 2012

Re: Accidental Plagiarising?

Post Fri Mar 15, 2019 4:18 pm

Music is love. My experience with love has taught me that you don't give a damn what anyone else thinks that could potentially upset the relationship.

Let the uneducated, uncultured vessels make their noise. Forgive them for they know not what they do.

As for worrying about accidental plagiarism: Just make sure plenty of people listen to your music before publishing. Upload your tracks here and I'm sure someone would say if they recognised a melody.

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jancivil
KVRAF
17545 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: Accidental Plagiarising?

Post Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:20 pm

Ou_Tis wrote:
Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:45 pm
For example, a musical about slavery in Montreal was shut down for appropriating 19th century African-American slave songs and having most of the slaves be played by white performers
Way to move the goalpost :clap:

You seem to have some kind of agenda even it's just a righteous look on social media. It's obvious you want to amplify something most of us won't experience because maybe we steer clear of such dipshittery.

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jancivil
KVRAF
17545 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: Accidental Plagiarising?

Post Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:25 pm

The fact that a few people (who don't represent almost anyone except themselves) are given voice in the media doesn't change the fact they are a minority
absolutely


anyway

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtNlLDHhSDo

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