Additive Syntheis Synth using waveforms other than sine Pt. 2

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
Beachboy
KVRist
70 posts since 25 Aug, 2003 from Germany

Post Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:05 am

faxinadu wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 2:35 am
why do u need a frequency shifter or anything funky. as stated a dozen times here, "partial 3" is just a normal synth oscillator detuned. there is zero point in having it in the additive sequence.
Then we now have 2 creative ideas, your detuning osc and my frequency shifting osc :)

yul
KVRian
893 posts since 26 Sep, 2002 from Montreal, CANADA

Re: Additive Syntheis Synth using waveforms other than sine Pt. 2

Post Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:34 am

Probably a little late on this thread but Virsyn Tera has variations of additive mode such as wavelet, walsh and operator synthesis via the additive partial section. It's quite interesting and believe there are real life applications where this can be used.

Secondly, I tried to arrange multiple VS waves from the Prophet/Wavestation in a similar sequence than the partials should be. Result is quite interesting. VS waves usually have a sine fundamental with a few harmonics. Every harmonic will lend itself to a specific combination..what usually happens is when you pitch down those waves by playing they become more prominent and the lower fundamental disappears.

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Tj Shredder
KVRAF
2240 posts since 6 Jan, 2017 from Outer Space

Re: Additive Syntheis Synth using waveforms other than sine Pt. 2

Post Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:27 am

Greenstorm33 wrote:
Wed Mar 20, 2019 3:41 pm
Say you have a saw wave at C3, and you play another sawtooth with its base frequency at frequency 13 of the C3 harmonic series. I believe many of the partials of that wave are not going to be at positions within the harmonic series of the base saw wave/beginning at C3, despite the fact that they are by definition within the harmonic overtone series of a note at whatever pitch harmonic 13 of C3 is. So, the process wagtunes is suggesting will yield inharmonic overtones with respect to the base frequency. I could be wrong.
You are (wrong) - do the math...

The main problem with additive synthesis is the sheer amount of parameters to control. Of course it would be helpful to replace one of the partial sines with something else. That would have its own partials which are not controlable seperately anymore, but would add a simplified way to modulate those partials all together. Yes you could simple apply the same modulation to lets say every 3rd partial of the fundamental to achive exactly the same result. But it would be more difficult to program it...

I think the good old K5 from Kawai tackled it by having a limited number of oscilators, and each of them would have a spektrum which could be defined by the mix of partials. Then you only need to apply envelopes to those collection of partials and could get pretty far...

With a number of 3 additive collections of partials there is Thorn you could set up that way with the additional ability to define your wave forms as wave tables... That should be able to get into an additive mindset with a controlable number of parameters...

chroma
KVRian
792 posts since 10 Jan, 2010

Re: Additive Syntheis Synth using waveforms other than sine Pt. 2

Post Thu Mar 21, 2019 11:39 am

For those who don’t want to do the math: partials are always a multiple of the root. E.G. if the root is 100Hz, then the partials are at 200, 300, 400, 500, 600, ...

If you were to replace the third partial (the one at 300, people use different terms sometimes, so being explicit :) with a custom oscillator, you can also represent it as a harmonic series with a root at 300. it will also be multiples, so 300, 600, 900, 1200, ... all of which are also multiples, and therefore partials, of the original note (@100Hz) as well.

This is also true when you mix normal oscs, say, two saws an octave apart.. if they are ‘pure’, the higher one will lay on top of the lower one in the harmonic series, but create a different sum.

Once you introduce detuning, distortion, etc. then this isn’t true any more, but you probably want to use multiple additive oscillators in that case, not just muck with a single series. But it might be interesting for efficiency or something. couldn’t hurt to try it ....

felis
KVRist
446 posts since 25 Jul, 2009

Re: Additive Syntheis Synth using waveforms other than sine Pt. 2

Post Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:53 pm

No matter how you look at it, you are still just adding sine waves and more complex oscillators.

They can be added at any frequency you want if you aren't trying to do traditional additive synthesis.

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Guenon
KVRAF
1600 posts since 17 Jun, 2005

Re: Additive Syntheis Synth using waveforms other than sine Pt. 2

Post Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:58 pm

chroma wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 11:39 am
For those who don’t want to do the math: partials are always a multiple of the root. E.G. if the root is 100Hz, then the partials are at 200, 300, 400, 500, 600, ...
As this is so strongly a terminology thread, I'll just stop by and say: you are confusing "partial" and "harmonic" there ^ ;)

felis
KVRist
446 posts since 25 Jul, 2009

Re: Additive Syntheis Synth using waveforms other than sine Pt. 2

Post Thu Mar 21, 2019 7:17 pm

Here's a neat little program to get geeky over:

http://www.michaelnorris.info/theory/ha ... calculator

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Tj Shredder
KVRAF
2240 posts since 6 Jan, 2017 from Outer Space

Re: Additive Syntheis Synth using waveforms other than sine Pt. 2

Post Thu Mar 21, 2019 10:08 pm

Guenon wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 3:58 pm
chroma wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 11:39 am
For those who don’t want to do the math: partials are always a multiple of the root. E.G. if the root is 100Hz, then the partials are at 200, 300, 400, 500, 600, ...
As this is so strongly a terminology thread, I'll just stop by and say: you are confusing "partial" and "harmonic" there ^ ;)
My Tibetan bowls have inharmonic partials which still sound harmonic to my ears...

felis
KVRist
446 posts since 25 Jul, 2009

Re: Additive Syntheis Synth using waveforms other than sine Pt. 2

Post Sat Mar 23, 2019 6:07 am

Tj Shredder wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:27 am
....
You are (wrong) - do the math...
He's not wrong. But not many would really care anyways.
From here: http://www.michaelnorris.info/theory/ha ... calculator

1 65.406 C 2 0
2 130.813 C 3 0
3 196.219 G 3 2
4 261.626 C 4 0
5 327.032 E 4 -14
6 392.438 G 4 2
7 457.845 Bb 4 -31 -1/4
8 523.251 C 5 0
9 588.658 D 5 4
10 654.064 E 5 -14
11 719.47 F# 5 -49 -1/4
12 784.877 G 5 2
13 850.283 Ab 5 41 +1/4
14 915.689 Bb 5 -31 -1/4
15 981.096 B 5 -12
16 1046.502 C 6 0
17 1111.909 C# 6 5
18 1177.315 D 6 4
19 1242.721 Eb 6 -2
20 1308.128 E 6 -14
21 1373.534 F 6 -29 -1/4
22 1438.941 F# 6 -49 -1/4
23 1504.347 F# 6 28 +1/4
24 1569.753 G 6 2
25 1635.16 Ab 6 -27 -1/4
26 1700.566 Ab 6 41 +1/4

Starting at appx. 13th partial:

1 830.609 Ab 5 0
2 1661.219 Ab 6 0
3 2491.828 Eb 7 2
4 3322.438 Ab 7 0
5 4153.047 C 8 -14
6 4983.656 Eb 8 2
7 5814.266 F# 8 -31 -1/4
8 6644.875 Ab 8 0
9 7475.485 Bb 8 4
10 8306.094 C 9 -14
11 9136.703 D 9 -49 -1/4
12 9967.313 Eb 9 2
13 10797.922 E 9 41 +1/4

imrae
KVRian
619 posts since 2 Jul, 2010

Re: Additive Syntheis Synth using waveforms other than sine Pt. 2

Post Sat Mar 23, 2019 6:21 am

(Deleted, was replying to something from pages ago by mistake.)

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DuX
KVRAF
3698 posts since 15 Mar, 2002 from Underworld

Re: Additive Syntheis Synth using waveforms other than sine Pt. 2

Post Sat Mar 23, 2019 4:25 pm

Because of the nature of additive synthesis it is a really great addition to any additive synth is to be able to resynthesise the samples. That thing makes it so much more versatile and easier to use. It almost feels like a sampler, but you can edit the sample in ways you cannot do so easily with the sampler.
It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.

WasteLand
KVRist
151 posts since 8 Jun, 2018

Re: Additive Syntheis Synth using waveforms other than sine Pt. 2

Post Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:45 am

i am not well versed in music theory... to say the least. but i read this thread with great interest, and i am implementing the knowledge in synclavier V, i understand the thing now much better. i didn't use that much, because, ow so many synths, modulars, and sample editing, and other ways to make tracks. but this thread gives me insight.
also i am experimenting in VM with the additive oscillator, cherry audio calls it harmonic partials.

i also have read some texts about additive synthesis, that enlighted me.

i understood the basics, but making waves, i.e. the how partials make a wave i understand now fully. fun!

i program all my synths from scratch, and make my own modular patches and my own samples (basis most of the times: field recorder).

sometimes you need an extra insentive to go into a synth, that i really like, but didn't use that much. strangely. i learned in a day, more than a year...

resynthesis in synclavier V is one thing i also wanted to do, but had one major oversight. read the manual! i must say to me, normally i do that. but for resynthesis i didn't had the manual, and didn't read it. it is great for making samples in a another. (with camel alchemy i used sometimes additive synthesis. but in synclavier, you see what you do, it is the balance, between reading theory, examples of partials, to make a wave, and reproduce that in synclavier. which by the way, in my opininion, a beast of a soft-synth...).
win 7 pro; cubase 9.5 pro, live 10 suite (+push 2), reaper, arturia V collection 6, reason 10, maschine (mk3+jam), korg collection, komplete 11 ultimate, softube modular, VM and many more..
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Tj Shredder
KVRAF
2240 posts since 6 Jan, 2017 from Outer Space

Re: Additive Syntheis Synth using waveforms other than sine Pt. 2

Post Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:15 am

felis wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 6:07 am
Tj Shredder wrote:
Thu Mar 21, 2019 8:27 am
....
You are (wrong) - do the math...
He's not wrong. But not many would really care anyways.
From here: http://www.michaelnorris.info/theory/ha ... calculator

1 65.406 C 2 0
.....
13 850.283 Ab 5 41 +1/4
...
26 1700.566 Ab 6 41 +1/4

Starting at appx. 13th partial:

1 830.609 Ab 5 0
2 1661.219 Ab 6 0
....
Appx is not a partial of the first row... Do the math and just learn that equal tempered tuning sounds bad anyway. (Especially if you approximate the 13th overtone - just don‘t do it!)

felis
KVRist
446 posts since 25 Jul, 2009

Re: Additive Syntheis Synth using waveforms other than sine Pt. 2

Post Sun Mar 24, 2019 6:13 am

WasteLand wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 12:45 am
i am not well versed in music theory... to say the least. but i read this thread with great interest, and i am implementing the knowledge in synclavier V, i understand the thing now much better. i didn't use that much, because, ow so many synths, modulars, and sample editing, and other ways to make tracks. but this thread gives me insight.
also i am experimenting in VM with the additive oscillator, cherry audio calls it harmonic partials.

i also have read some texts about additive synthesis, that enlighted me.

i understood the basics, but making waves, i.e. the how partials make a wave i understand now fully. fun!

i program all my synths from scratch, and make my own modular patches and my own samples (basis most of the times: field recorder).

sometimes you need an extra insentive to go into a synth, that i really like, but didn't use that much. strangely. i learned in a day, more than a year...

resynthesis in synclavier V is one thing i also wanted to do, but had one major oversight. read the manual! i must say to me, normally i do that. but for resynthesis i didn't had the manual, and didn't read it. it is great for making samples in a another. (with camel alchemy i used sometimes additive synthesis. but in synclavier, you see what you do, it is the balance, between reading theory, examples of partials, to make a wave, and reproduce that in synclavier. which by the way, in my opininion, a beast of a soft-synth...).

Yes - additive is fascinating. I first started toying with it with a Kawai K5m and then got three K5000's, and more recently got into some softsynths that do it.
I found that it's best for making smooth, glassy, other wordly sounds. It's rather difficult and time consuming, and also requires a bit of research to try and do acoustic instrument emulations.
Not worth the effort, IMO.

You will only be able to get approximations of what you're after, depending on the quality of the gear.
For instance, with the K5's, although it was supposed to be using sine waves, there were very low level partials that showed up in FFT's.
Significant amounts of micro tunings occur when lots of partials are used, and their frequencies
can quickly exceed human hearing range.
Still - additive is fun to toy with, and yes, I also think the Synclavier V is one of my favorites.

Ah_Dziz
KVRAF
2543 posts since 2 Jul, 2005

Re: Additive Syntheis Synth using waveforms other than sine Pt. 2

Post Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:25 am

For some simpler implementations of this sort of thing, you could play with any of the major fm synths. FM8 has 6 oscillators that can all be tuned to exact multiples of the base frequency. They also allow for you to use alternate waves for each, and that can get you some cool stuff befor you even start in with the modulations. I would really recommend playing with reaktor for this. You could have an implementation of this with 256 oscillators, up and running in an afternoon and then see what sort of sounds it spits out. The bigger issue would be getting a useful control system setup to make these modifications.
Don't F**K with Mr. Zero.

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