Why Can't We Get A CS-80 VST That Actually Sounds Like a CS-80?

[sinemotor]

Now go listen to this.

yt

If you can't tell that the resonance of the Yamaha CS-80 filters blow away Arturia's then I don't know what to tell you.

There is NO comparison. The Arturia is a weak emulation at best.

And mind you, this isn't even one of my favorite pieces of music and isn't even the best example of what the CS-80 can do.

It sounds like it was recorded on VHS.

The Blade Runner covers posted earlier sound 70/80% there but are not super realistic because they don't emulate the imperfections, the quirks...

The last 20% for me is about recreating the "vintage layer" (the imperfections) and it's totally feasible to get 98% of the original sound with, say, Diva, Repro 5, Omni... AND other FXs and processing tricks. It's a sound design/production game to nail that Blade Runner sound.

Btw, if some of you are into blade runner type of soundtrack, I can recommend to listen to Disasterpeace's Hyper Light Drifter soundtrack. Some great examples of creativity with VSTs (he used NI Massive, u-he Satin, and Waves J37s a lot here)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZfUtS3NsYM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCUKid6uCH8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdvYWDpb0Xg

[gminorcoles]

I am a bit flabbergasted that a topic like this gets such a serious treatment and that the person who started, and behaves towards others the way he does, is treated with respect just because he owns a lot of synthesizers? This is like buying a lot of expensive hand made guitars.

The most respected members of this forum, I would think, would be people who are more adept are creating and building than the rest of us. I respect the very talented Arturia programmer who makes a 95% recreation of an old synth, I respect the gospel-trained keyboardist who plays only a B3 and a Nord Stage 2 on tour but blows my mind every show. I respect the composer who limits himself to only composing for a sad old mechanical piano.

I have to say I don't find spoiled complaining, by someone who seems proud of their lack of technical abilities, very respectable.

[Neon Breath]

A good artist/musician will always find a way to come up with something amazing, even when working with a poor instrument.
A poor artist/musician will always find a way to come up with something bad, even when working with a good instrument.

[pdxindy]

I am a bit flabbergasted that a topic like this gets such a serious treatment and that the person who started, and behaves towards others the way he does, is treated with respect just because he owns a lot of synthesizers? This is like buying a lot of expensive hand made guitars.

The most respected members of this forum, I would think, would be people who are more adept are creating and building than the rest of us. I respect the very talented Arturia programmer who makes a 95% recreation of an old synth, I respect the gospel-trained keyboardist who plays only a B3 and a Nord Stage 2 on tour but blows my mind every show. I respect the composer who limits himself to only composing for a sad old mechanical piano.

I have to say I don't find spoiled complaining, by someone who seems proud of their lack of technical abilities, very respectable.

6 times you use the word respect... while writing a disrespectful post...

[Cinebient]

Just loud thinking but i think that it is also mainly about inspiration an instrument gives the artist. Vangelis might did even more awesome stuff if he had choose other tools. But maybe not. Everything is possible.
I personally hear nothing really special in the pure sound of any CS-80 demos i heard yet (but i never had the joy to play with the real thing in front of me).
I think even that modern software is much better. It is just about what a sound designer or artist make out of it.
Further i would say that i think it should be possible to nearly recreate all the "old" famous synth soundtracks (and more) with modern tools (and even most stock tools in our DAWs) but the things which are possible today were not possible with these old synths.
We have so much good emulations and "close enough" tools which you can combine with other FX and tools that i´m also more interested in the "future". Future means for me creative and unique FX, better physical modeling, new interesting synthesis and things i might not even dream about yet.
As usual just a useless personal meaning to others. Nothing is a fact.
Anyway, i doubt you ever hear any "pure" synth sound in any song without further saturation, FX, mastering.... whatever. Man, even ES2 sound like hardware to me with the right preset and FX behind it.
Some tools sounds worse but are much more inspiring at the same time because of a better workflow or new ways to interact with sounds (i feel this with some iOS apps f.e. i would prefer over a hardware synth even). We have so much more today than what they had in the past and yet we are searching in the past.

[chk071]

There are some vintage synth where i definitely understand the hype that's being made about them. If you take the Minimoog for example, it already sounds very fat just using 2 oscillators, and the filter and envelopes are simply a joy to play with, and have an infinite sweet spot. I don't really know if the CS-80 is such a case. As has been pointed out, at least a good part of the "magic" seems to be related to the poly aftertouch, and the playability. Some part of the magic of the Minimoog is also its playability, and accessibility/immediacy. Which already might be compromised, when you use a software emulation.

Again, maybe i'm just the wrong person to ask. I'm not into the Blade Runner OST, nor am i into Vangelis music.

I lusted a long time for the Virus and JP-8k hardware synths. I feel like i can get 99% of that sound with Spire though (plus so much more which Spire can achieve, and the others cannot). Plus, it gives me all the advantages of software. Doubt i'd spent the money, even if i had it spare.

[wagtunes]

There is no question that what we have today is far superior, from a technical standpoint, than anything we had 40 years ago. I'd be an idiot to even try to argue that. But sometimes you want something that sounds, well, old. Otherwise, why would tape emulations be so popular?

There is no denying that, for many of us, we are trying to get away from the pristine, cold, digital sound that we coveted when CDs first came out, and mind you sounded like crap at the beginning.

Do most of today's synths sound "better" than a CS-80? Probably. But if you want THAT sound, good luck getting it with today's equipment.

If this were not true, we wouldn't have any emulations at all. Synth developers would have long left the Minimoogs and Jupiters and Oberheims long behind and just made stuff that sounded new. But they didn't do that.

Gee, I wonder why?

I mean I gotta wonder how many people here in this thread who say the CS-80 emulations are "good enough" went out and bought The Legend because the previous Minimoog emulations were NOT good enough.

But, whatever. I asked a question. And as usual, in grand KVR style, one guy pretty much all but said I have mental problems and another guy with one post writes a whole bunch of disrespectful crap.

And people wonder why I sometimes hate this place.

[Neon Breath]

Just loud thinking but i think that it is also mainly about inspiration an instrument gives the artist. Vangelis might did even more awesome stuff if he had choose other tools.

Totally. Vangelis is truly a mind-blowing composer & artist with years and years of experience and an immense talent. When he did the Bladerunner score he already had nearly 20 years of experience under his belt with tons of other projects and scores. You could give him a triangle and he probably would do something amazing with it and at the end you would want a VST triangle mimicking his triangle sound signature. Reducing his amazing work and talent down to a simple synth sound is quite an insult to this unique composer. Of course when he touched the CS-80 it turned into pure magic, like any other synths Vangelis touched as well.

[Cinebient]

There are some vintage synth where i definitely understand the hype that's being made about them. If you take the Minimoog for example, it already sounds very fat just using 2 oscillators, and the filter and envelopes are simply a joy to play with, and have an infinite sweet spot. I don't really know if the CS-80 is such a case. As has been pointed out, at least a good part of the "magic" seems to be related to the poly aftertouch, and the playability. Some part of the magic of the Minimoog is also its playability, and accessibility/immediacy. Which already might be compromised, when you use a software emulation.

Again, maybe i'm just the wrong person to ask. I'm not into the Blade Runner OST, nor am i into Vangelis music.

I lusted a long time for the Virus and JP-8k hardware synths. I feel like i can get 99% of that sound with Spire though (plus so much more which Spire can achieve, and the others cannot). Plus, it gives me all the advantages of software. Doubt i'd spent the money, even if i had it spare.

Yes, but today you even could play several analog emulations via MPE if you want and get much more expression as you might ever need.
For fun i made some templates were i set several emulations with similar presets but each key/midi note will trigger another synth/emulation by random.
But sometimes a mono-bass line might be all you need to get a good feel and inspiration.
I guess a lot famous artist still use some old stuff they love but also use the modern things.
At the end it doesn´t matter. Like mentioned to death here already but in a blind test no one will hear what instruments are used.

[Cinebient]

There is no question that what we have today is far superior, from a technical standpoint, than anything we had 40 years ago. I'd be an idiot to even try to argue that. But sometimes you want something that sounds, well, old. Otherwise, why would tape emulations be so popular?

There is no denying that, for many of us, we are trying to get away from the pristine, cold, digital sound that we coveted when CDs first came out, and mind you sounded like crap at the beginning.

Do most of today's synths sound "better" than a CS-80? Probably. But if you want THAT sound, good luck getting it with today's equipment.

If this were not true, we wouldn't have any emulations at all. Synth developers would have long left the Minimoogs and Jupiters and Oberheims long behind and just made stuff that sounded new. But they didn't do that.

Gee, I wonder why?

I mean I gotta wonder how many people here in this thread who say the CS-80 emulations are "good enough" went out and bought The Legend because the previous Minimoog emulations were NOT good enough.

But, whatever. I asked a question. And as usual, in grand KVR style, one guy pretty much all but said I have mental problems and another guy with one post writes a whole bunch of disrespectful crap.

And people wonder why I sometimes hate this place.

Might be true. I personally like if developers take parts and combine it. Like having several filters to choose and combine instead of a single emulation of a distinct sound. Nothing wrong with "exact" emulations since i like the ones i own (but not for the emulation which might be exact or not but just for the sound they produce).
Of course there is clearly a market and you have a point here i understand.

[pdxindy]

There are some vintage synth where i definitely understand the hype that's being made about them. If you take the Minimoog for example, it already sounds very fat just using 2 oscillators, and the filter and envelopes are simply a joy to play with, and have an infinite sweet spot. I don't really know if the CS-80 is such a case. As has been pointed out, at least a good part of the "magic" seems to be related to the poly aftertouch, and the playability. Some part of the magic of the Minimoog is also its playability, and accessibility/immediacy. Which already might be compromised, when you use a software emulation.

There is something about various vintage analog synths that have a kind of organic quality and character. Some of the magic is in the impermanence... VST's are predictable and repeatable.

In the original bladerunner track, there are lots of little subtle variations in that lead sound over time. Some of the VST recreations sound really close, for a moment, but then it starts to sound too similar and a bit crude. The CS-80 lead sound is so nuanced.

For most popular music it just doesn't matter. There is usually so much going on and new things coming in... that sort of nuance is just not necessary. However, I still appreciate it and look for it for myself.

And yeah, the Minimoog is special. Since most comparisons are of recordings, something is missed of what it sounds like in person straight to the sound system. Tweak the filter slightly and something beautiful comes out. That huge sweet spot and little surprising tonalities...

[pdxindy]

Do most of today's synths sound "better" than a CS-80? Probably.

Define better... wider and more flexible sonic possibilities? Sure... Analog synths still have something beautiful about them that digital doesn't.

[Cinebient]

Do most of today's synths sound "better" than a CS-80? Probably.

Define better... wider and more flexible sonic possibilities? Sure... Analog synths still have something beautiful about them that digital doesn't.

The weight?

[wagtunes]

Do most of today's synths sound "better" than a CS-80? Probably.

Define better... wider and more flexible sonic possibilities? Sure... Analog synths still have something beautiful about them that digital doesn't.

Yeah, that's really what I meant. No VST that I've ever heard sounds as big and fat as a Schmidt.

[Cinebient]

Maybe i see it different since i just did not play with much analog synths in real-time.
At least there is no demo i ever saw which i would say "woah, sounds bigger than any software i ever heard".
When i hear big sound i think about a huge church pipe organ.