Why Can't We Get A CS-80 VST That Actually Sounds Like a CS-80?

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
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zerocrossing
KVRAF
9505 posts since 26 Jun, 2006 from San Francisco Bay Area

Post Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:53 pm

cfanyc wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:31 pm
chk071 wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:18 pm
cfanyc wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:58 pm
modern vsts and hybrid sample/synthesis instruments can approximate the
cs-80 pretty well. See for example the end-to-end cover of the Bladerunner score
by Edgar Rothermich done with pre-version 2 omnisphere:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_Qjzj5pjK4

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=edgar+rother ... nb_sb_noss
Actually, i'd argue that that's a good example of why it is not that easy to replicate such sounds. It's a nice recreation all in all, but, that sax-like synth sound sounds a lot more sterile than in the original.
That is what I argued also (maybe not clearly enough). The sound can get quite close but not exactly and
also not as effortlessly as the original instrument. For example the Peter Schilling
Bladerunner Blues piece quoted earlier in the thread gets reasonably close to the
original but only with a ton of automation (the arturia instrument is not expressive enough
to be played organically to the same effect).
Is the synth not expressive, or is it the controller? One of the first things I did when I got my polyphonic aftertouch enabled keyboard (GEM S2) is go to all the software that I knew responded to it, and it really makes a huge difference. One thing I’d urge any developer to do when creating a CS-80 emulator is to make sure it’s also MPE compatible.
Zerocrossing Media

4th Law of Robotics: When turning evil, display a red indicator light. ~[ ●_● ]~

cfanyc
KVRist
272 posts since 8 Dec, 2013

Re: Why Can't We Get A CS-80 VST That Actually Sounds Like a CS-80?

Post Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:27 pm

zerocrossing wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:53 pm


Is the synth not expressive, or is it the controller? One of the first things I did when I got my polyphonic aftertouch enabled keyboard (GEM S2) is go to all the software that I knew responded to it, and it really makes a huge difference. One thing I’d urge any developer to do when creating a CS-80 emulator is to make sure it’s also MPE compatible.
MPE is absolutely essential. Regarding the arturia, i think it is the limitations of the synth
compounded by limitations of controllers + daws (eg few daws are mpe capable).

Let's not forget that the expressiveness of the synth is not determined only by mpe support
but by its instabilities/randomness/detuning/non-linearities/noise (real or simulated),
and the types and implementation of the full set of modulations. All of these (not just the sound
sources and filters and layer architecture and fx) need be modelled (or recreated in hw) fully and accurately to get a 100% cs-80 sound, and nobody has achieved that to date unfortunately.

himalaya
KVRAF
5022 posts since 23 Mar, 2006 from pendeLondonmonium

Re: Why Can't We Get A CS-80 VST That Actually Sounds Like a CS-80?

Post Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:32 pm

cfanyc wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:20 pm
one more thing for those who say there is nothing special about
the cs-80: this video is from a partially restored (!) unit played
thru a lex 224 reverb.

https://www.synthtopia.com/content/2011 ... d-sampler/

If one cannot hear the richness of the sound, even via crappy recording and youtube
conversion then it is time for a visit to the ear doc!
Well, I'd like to hear that richness without the Lexicon 224XL reverb, which can make even a Casio VL1 sound like a million dollar synth.

When I want to hear the CS80 in all its glory I turn to the Beaubourg album by Vanglis. The reverb here is much more controlled and does not mask the underlying sounds as much as it does in the Synthtopia example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8u7C77K1aQ
http://www.electric-himalaya.com
VSTi and hardware synth sound design

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pdxindy
KVRAF
15445 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Re: Why Can't We Get A CS-80 VST That Actually Sounds Like a CS-80?

Post Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:45 pm

chk071 wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:18 pm
cfanyc wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:58 pm
modern vsts and hybrid sample/synthesis instruments can approximate the
cs-80 pretty well. See for example the end-to-end cover of the Bladerunner score
by Edgar Rothermich done with pre-version 2 omnisphere:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_Qjzj5pjK4

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=edgar+rother ... nb_sb_noss
Actually, i'd argue that that's a good example of why it is not that easy to replicate such sounds. It's a nice recreation all in all, but, that sax-like synth sound sounds a lot more sterile than in the original.
It's very well done... lots of skill to get close... But yeah... it misses the subtlety and organic depth. There are lots of little tonal variations in the original that aren't in the recreation... the vst version sounds more static and constant, like the same sound louder or softer, filtered a little more and so on.

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pdxindy
KVRAF
15445 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Re: Why Can't We Get A CS-80 VST That Actually Sounds Like a CS-80?

Post Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:50 pm

cfanyc wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:31 pm
chk071 wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:18 pm
cfanyc wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:58 pm
modern vsts and hybrid sample/synthesis instruments can approximate the
cs-80 pretty well. See for example the end-to-end cover of the Bladerunner score
by Edgar Rothermich done with pre-version 2 omnisphere:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_Qjzj5pjK4

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=edgar+rother ... nb_sb_noss
Actually, i'd argue that that's a good example of why it is not that easy to replicate such sounds. It's a nice recreation all in all, but, that sax-like synth sound sounds a lot more sterile than in the original.
That is what I argued also (maybe not clearly enough). The sound can get quite close but not exactly and
also not as effortlessly as the original instrument.
And it is not that a bit more skill or time could get it... Analog still has something to it.

goldenanalog
KVRAF
1876 posts since 7 Dec, 2005 from somewhere between analog and digital

Re: Why Can't We Get A CS-80 VST That Actually Sounds Like a CS-80?

Post Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:54 pm

:hihi:
Last edited by goldenanalog on Thu Apr 25, 2019 8:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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pdxindy
KVRAF
15445 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Re: Why Can't We Get A CS-80 VST That Actually Sounds Like a CS-80?

Post Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:56 pm

himalaya wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:32 pm
When I want to hear the CS80 in all its glory I turn to the Beaubourg album by Vanglis. The reverb here is much more controlled and does not mask the underlying sounds as much as it does in the Synthtopia example:
No VST could do that. It sounds amazing!

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donkey tugger
Boss Lovin' DR
5596 posts since 15 Mar, 2002 from the grimness of yorkshire

Re: Why Can't We Get A CS-80 VST That Actually Sounds Like a CS-80?

Post Wed Apr 24, 2019 5:03 pm

I prefer Demis Roussos.

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BONES
GRRRRRRR!
7923 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Re: Why Can't We Get A CS-80 VST That Actually Sounds Like a CS-80?

Post Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:06 pm

anomandaris1 wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:47 am
How many listeners will spot the difference between a real analogue synth and a vst?
More to the point, of those who did notice, how many would a) care, and b) notice because the VST actually sounds better? Take those two groups out and you'd be left with nobody.
NOVAkILL 3.0 : Acer Switch5 (Core i5, 8GB RAM, Win10),Yamaha MG10XU, Cubase Pro 10, DUNE, Hive, Thorn, TRK-01, Equator, Substance, Seaboard Rise 25, Ultranova, Rocket, Pulse 2, Analog Keys, MicroMonsta, Uno, Skulpt.

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waltercruz
KVRAF
1731 posts since 4 Dec, 2011 from Brasília, Brazil

Re: Why Can't We Get A CS-80 VST That Actually Sounds Like a CS-80?

Post Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:48 pm

BTW, Paul Schilling did the Lead patch for Deckard Dream too

https://soundcloud.com/paul-schilling/d ... blues-demo

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zerocrossing
KVRAF
9505 posts since 26 Jun, 2006 from San Francisco Bay Area

Re: Why Can't We Get A CS-80 VST That Actually Sounds Like a CS-80?

Post Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:10 pm

BONES wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:06 pm
anomandaris1 wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:47 am
How many listeners will spot the difference between a real analogue synth and a vst?
More to the point, of those who did notice, how many would a) care, and b) notice because the VST actually sounds better? Take those two groups out and you'd be left with nobody.
People know, though they might not have the words to express it. Once I was at a Guitar Center with my wife. I was messing about with a Moog Slim Phatty. She pointed out a Roland Gaia and said, “why not this one? Seems like it does more.” I didn’t know much about the Gaia, so I took it for a spin for a bit and mid way she said, “The other one sounds a lot better.” She was totally right, but she’d be the first person to say, “I can’t hear the difference” if you actually put her on the spot and asked her.
Zerocrossing Media

4th Law of Robotics: When turning evil, display a red indicator light. ~[ ●_● ]~

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BONES
GRRRRRRR!
7923 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Re: Why Can't We Get A CS-80 VST That Actually Sounds Like a CS-80?

Post Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:57 pm

You seem to assume the real thing will sound better but I'd be surprised if that was the case. The reality is that in 99% of situations, 99% of people wouldn't even know it was a CS80. I wouldn't have a clue what a CS80 sounds like and I've been buying and using synths for going on 40 years.

In your example you are also talking about one synth that costs twice as much as another. That the cheap one is a Roland also makes it likely anyone would notice the difference.
NOVAkILL 3.0 : Acer Switch5 (Core i5, 8GB RAM, Win10),Yamaha MG10XU, Cubase Pro 10, DUNE, Hive, Thorn, TRK-01, Equator, Substance, Seaboard Rise 25, Ultranova, Rocket, Pulse 2, Analog Keys, MicroMonsta, Uno, Skulpt.

AnX
KVRAF
4359 posts since 17 Nov, 2015

Re: Why Can't We Get A CS-80 VST That Actually Sounds Like a CS-80?

Post Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:21 pm

himalaya wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:32 pm

Well, I'd like to hear that richness without the Lexicon 224XL reverb, which can make even a Casio VL1 sound like a million dollar synth.

For Sale: Casio VL1 - $1m :hihi:

Cinebient
KVRAF
4134 posts since 16 Nov, 2014

Re: Why Can't We Get A CS-80 VST That Actually Sounds Like a CS-80?

Post Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:40 am

Purists take over....

Cinebient
KVRAF
4134 posts since 16 Nov, 2014

Re: Why Can't We Get A CS-80 VST That Actually Sounds Like a CS-80?

Post Thu Apr 25, 2019 1:48 am

pdxindy wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:56 pm
himalaya wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:32 pm
When I want to hear the CS80 in all its glory I turn to the Beaubourg album by Vanglis. The reverb here is much more controlled and does not mask the underlying sounds as much as it does in the Synthtopia example:
No VST could do that. It sounds amazing!
This is not a fact but just a meaning. I personally really like the tone and the composition (more important here) but for me most 5 dollar apps could sound even better these days.
At the end we just should use what we think makes us happy.
But maybe a reason i´m so a fan of the P900 sound since i read somewhere it has a lot little randomization f.e. also in the envelopes. You won´t get a perfect psy bass out of it but it feels some kind of most organic and alive while playing and tweaking in realtime i feel with no other synth as much.
A reason i like Moogs Animoog app so much. It has not the most juicy and phat sound but the way you can play it makes it so expressive (same with Model D and Model 15 and some MPE desktop synths like The Legend).
Whatever...seems like another hardware vs. software thing which at the end is just important for the creator and does not matter for any listener (since NO ONE would hear a different at the end between a 10000 dollar hardware, 100 dollar plug-in or 5 dollar app with the right FX and mixing behind it).
In general a lot praise goes to certain instruments while i think it is 99% the artist and nothing else.

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