Looking for a book or techhnical resource on DSP...

DSP, Plug-in and Host development discussion.
degras
KVRer
8 posts since 15 Oct, 2009

Post Sun Apr 28, 2019 9:40 am

...in particular I'm interested in audio algorithms for filters, and effects such as reverb, chorus and phase, or time stretching. Basically anything that is involved and not mathematically / computationally obvious.

mtytel
KVRist
69 posts since 28 Jan, 2013 from Oakland

Re: Looking for a book or techhnical resource on DSP...

Post Sun Apr 28, 2019 10:57 am

The Art of VA Filter Design by @Z1202 is the best book I've read on filters if you want virtual analog. He has a section on phasers too.
Amazingly he gives it away for free. I'd recommend going to a copy shop and printing it out.
https://www.native-instruments.com/file ... _2.1.0.pdf

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matt42
KVRian
1110 posts since 9 Jan, 2006

Re: Looking for a book or techhnical resource on DSP...

Post Sun Apr 28, 2019 1:16 pm

Add to that The Scientist and Engineers Guide to DSP, also free, and Designing Audio Effects Plugins in C++, not free.

Also for DSP maths look to engineering mathematics books, I found one of the (There are a few at different levels) John Bird engineering mathematics books helpful.

(To be honest while The Art of VA filter design claims to be an introductory text - that actually means an introductory text for someone with a high level of mathematics and classical DSP- an important distinction. A great text none the less, but worth keeping in mind depending on your level)

Z1202
KVRian
1059 posts since 12 Apr, 2002

Re: Looking for a book or techhnical resource on DSP...

Post Sun Apr 28, 2019 10:14 pm

matt42 wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 1:16 pm
(To be honest while The Art of VA filter design claims to be an introductory text - that actually means an introductory text for someone with a high level of mathematics and classical DSP
Which parts of classical DSP do you believe to be a prerequisite and why?

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Max M.
KVRist
323 posts since 20 Apr, 2005 from Moscow, Russian Federation

Re: Looking for a book or techhnical resource on DSP...

Post Sun Apr 28, 2019 10:55 pm

For a very introductory level I'd suggest https://www.analog.com/media/en/technic ... torial.pdf (not a book and quite old but still a pretty good easy starting point for the (very basic "digital" level) algorithms specifically mentioned by the OP).

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Andrew Souter
KVRAF
2498 posts since 12 Sep, 2008

Re: Looking for a book or techhnical resource on DSP...

Post Mon Apr 29, 2019 5:04 am

https://ccrma.stanford.edu/~jos/RO/Onli ... ssing.html

and Vadim's book is great too as already suggested.

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Audiority
KVRian
813 posts since 15 Nov, 2005 from Italy

Re: Looking for a book or techhnical resource on DSP...

Post Tue Apr 30, 2019 6:32 am

+1 for Julius Smith's page on Stanford. I'll also add to spend money on some great books, such the already mentioned Designing Audio Effects Plugin in C++ and DAFX.
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tampacct
KVRist
45 posts since 5 Nov, 2018

Re: Looking for a book or techhnical resource on DSP...

Post Sat May 04, 2019 11:08 pm

its all there already, formatted, what you want to do i guess is learn enough lingo to get into conversations with some sort of gate keeper wizard and see if you can smooth talk your way into some code snippets that aren't readily available, and thus played out.

sellyoursoul
KVRist
436 posts since 1 May, 2009

Re: Looking for a book or techhnical resource on DSP...

Post Sun May 19, 2019 2:02 pm

matt42 wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 1:16 pm
Add to that The Scientist and Engineers Guide to DSP, also free, and Designing Audio Effects Plugins in C++, not free.

Also for DSP maths look to engineering mathematics books, I found one of the (There are a few at different levels) John Bird engineering mathematics books helpful.

(To be honest while The Art of VA filter design claims to be an introductory text - that actually means an introductory text for someone with a high level of mathematics and classical DSP- an important distinction. A great text none the less, but worth keeping in mind depending on your level)
I have been looking for a good math resource for a while now. Which of Bird's books did you find helpful? Were there any notable strengths and weaknesses with it?

matt42
KVRian
1110 posts since 9 Jan, 2006

Re: Looking for a book or techhnical resource on DSP...

Post Sun May 19, 2019 9:19 pm

Z1202 wrote:
Sun Apr 28, 2019 10:14 pm
Which parts of classical DSP do you believe to be a prerequisite and why?
Apologies, it's a while since I read the book and may have the wrong impression on that point. I would stand by it having a higher bar for entry than some people may expect for an introductory text, but I dont mean that as a criticism.
sellyoursoul wrote:
Sun May 19, 2019 2:02 pm
I have been looking for a good math resource for a while now. Which of Bird's books did you find helpful? Were there any notable strengths and weaknesses with it?
A while since I read it, but it was the Higher Engineering Mathematics one which claims to suitable up to degree level engineering. It starts with the basics of algebra and trig, which may or may not be helpful depending on what you need and goes on to cover stuff like complex numbers, calculus, differential equations, laplace transforms and plenty of other stuff. The explanations were clear, to me at least, and there is an emphasis on working through problems, which I found useful to help memorise things, but might seem like a wast if you absorb the content more easily.

sellyoursoul
KVRist
436 posts since 1 May, 2009

Re: Looking for a book or techhnical resource on DSP...

Post Mon May 20, 2019 8:47 pm

Thanks matt42. It seems very common that people will recommend the same sorts of books to beginners, such as The Art of VA Filter Design, that will be way over a beginner's head. I have looked at that book in the past (because it was recommended for a beginner), and it should NOT be a recommended dsp beginner book, as you pointed out. On the other hand, I have read a little of The Scientist and Engineers Guide to DSP, and I did understand what I read within my math abilities. But my math education is very basic. So one of those books by Bird look to be a good fit for me. Maybe Comprehensive Engineering Mathematics, since it seems to cover everything that is in Bird's other books titled Basic Engineering Mathematics, Engineering Mathematics, and Higher Engineering Mathematics. It looks like a giant tomb though at 1200 pages.

Z1202
KVRian
1059 posts since 12 Apr, 2002

Re: Looking for a book or techhnical resource on DSP...

Post Mon May 20, 2019 11:02 pm

sellyoursoul wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 8:47 pm
Thanks matt42. It seems very common that people will recommend the same sorts of books to beginners, such as The Art of VA Filter Design, that will be way over a beginner's head. I have looked at that book in the past (because it was recommended for a beginner), and it should NOT be a recommended dsp beginner book, as you pointed out.
With the risk of sounding annoying I'd like to point out that there is a difference between a DSP beginner and beginner in advanced math. Advanced math (calculus and complex algebra) is a prerequisite, DSP isn't and may be even harmful.

Edit. Therefore claiming the preliminary DSP knowledge is necessary can be highly misleading for potential readers who already have the necessary math skills and also possibly for those who don't, but might be willing to obtain them elsewhere independently of DSP.

mystran
KVRAF
5291 posts since 12 Feb, 2006 from Helsinki, Finland

Re: Looking for a book or techhnical resource on DSP...

Post Tue May 21, 2019 1:25 am

Z1202 wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 11:02 pm
sellyoursoul wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 8:47 pm
Thanks matt42. It seems very common that people will recommend the same sorts of books to beginners, such as The Art of VA Filter Design, that will be way over a beginner's head. I have looked at that book in the past (because it was recommended for a beginner), and it should NOT be a recommended dsp beginner book, as you pointed out.
With the risk of sounding annoying I'd like to point out that there is a difference between a DSP beginner and beginner in advanced math. Advanced math (calculus and complex algebra) is a prerequisite, DSP isn't and may be even harmful.

Well "advanced math" as in basic undergraduate engineering math (ie. basically the stuff that every EE student at least around here learns during their freshman year). For a math student, that would hardly be "advanced" in any sense of the word. :D
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Z1202
KVRian
1059 posts since 12 Apr, 2002

Re: Looking for a book or techhnical resource on DSP...

Post Tue May 21, 2019 1:28 am

mystran wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 1:25 am
Well "advanced math" as in basic undergraduate engineering math (ie. basically the stuff that every EE student at least around here learns during their freshman year). For a math student, that would hardly be "advanced" in any sense of the word. :D
I'd guess that most of engineers (not just EE) would learn that math. So "advanced" in the "non-engineering" sense, yes. Otherwise, it's basic analysis ;)

Edit: in Russian there is a term "higher math" which basically means everything above school level, starting with calculus and linear algebra. I'm not aware of a comparable unambiguous term in English.

sellyoursoul
KVRist
436 posts since 1 May, 2009

Re: Looking for a book or techhnical resource on DSP...

Post Tue May 21, 2019 6:36 am

Should it be implied that anyone who is interested in dsp should already have an engineering background? Or should that be a question that is raised when someone asks about learning dsp? I would think that many more people (such as myself) have a naive interest in dsp without having an engineering background or even an understanding of the prerequisite knowledge for beginning into dsp.

Also, alot of what I have read from engineering students and engineers is that they take the required math courses at university but do not gain a real understanding of the math. And I have talked to quite a number of people who have taken math courses at university (including math majors and instructors) who didn't gain an understanding of what was being 'taught'. In other words, they learned the required steps for completing bookwork but didn't come away with good conceptual understanding and therefore lack the ability to apply math in solving real problems. One math instructor who I know and who has won state teaching awards for math told me that his understanding in math eventually came around after years of teaching math at university.

So then somone who is trying to self-study math for dsp outside of a university environment is doing so from an approach of attempting to understand the math for solving problems rather than completing busy work and passing a long series of tests for completing requirements of a degree. And it quickly becomes obvious that most math books aren't well written for understanding, much less self-study, but rather for hitting checkpoints of math education standards requirements.

But apparently a minority do end up with a good understanding of the math for dsp, else no one would be doing new work in dsp and other engineering. But those people do seem to be in the small minority.

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