Powerful synths that are CPU friendly?

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
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exmatproton
KVRAF
2288 posts since 25 Apr, 2011

Post Sun May 26, 2019 7:11 am

BONES wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 5:09 am
Go2 has known GUI problems but slow update rates isn't one of them. As fast as I flick a knob around, the GUI updates and the vector-scope display is very smooth, even when the waveform is changing rapidly. As I said, it is far more likely to be the fact they use a comparatively small number of frames in their knob animations. Try this - hold down SHIFT and turn a knob in Vecto. In Orion, Go 2 gives me fine control this way, hopefully Vecto will be the same in your host. I have to move the knob about one-third of the screen height just to see the knob tick over from one frame to the next. It will show you how far apart the frames are, which will give you an idea of how many frames there might be.
Ok..now i am sure we are talking 2 different things here. Go2 is running @ 17 FPS (when turning knobs), which make reading the values of a certain parameter inside the plugin a hassle. Sure, holding SHIFT (on windows in my DAW) is making the knob turn way more precise, so getting a knob to a certain value is easier that way. The scope is slow as well...
But that is not my main issue.
The main issue is input lagg when playing notes and turning knobs.
I, however, found a workaround in my DAW. When i bridge the plugin, there is no such input lagg anymore. So it is kinda fixed with several plugins. Go2 is still running at the same refresh rates, but at least the input is as immediate as with "fast" plugins.

Stefken
KVRian
1137 posts since 9 Nov, 2016

Re: Powerful synths that are CPU friendly?

Post Sun May 26, 2019 12:00 pm

Imo what Bones is saying is that a refreshrate cannot make a button animation smoother than it inherently is. Lets use extreme numbers to clarify this.
Say a button animation only has 5 possible postions/ frames along it's arc. So not a smooth animation at all. Even if the gui refreshes at 60 hz, the maximum number of positions and smoothness that this button animation can have, will still be 5!
Last edited by Stefken on Sun May 26, 2019 12:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

chk071
KVRAF
20331 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Re: Powerful synths that are CPU friendly?

Post Sun May 26, 2019 12:04 pm

And how relevant is that with most knobs and faders being able to be moved continuously, and not in 5 lousy steps?

Stefken
KVRian
1137 posts since 9 Nov, 2016

Re: Powerful synths that are CPU friendly?

Post Sun May 26, 2019 12:06 pm

Have you ever made a knob? Dumbass.
Digital is always discrete.

chk071
KVRAF
20331 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Re: Powerful synths that are CPU friendly?

Post Sun May 26, 2019 12:13 pm

My point was rather that, apart from knobs which can be set to 5 different positions, you won't find so few knob or fader positions on any parameter.

frizzbee
KVRist
227 posts since 11 Jan, 2015

Re: Powerful synths that are CPU friendly?

Post Sun May 26, 2019 12:20 pm

Stefken wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 12:06 pm
Have you ever made a knob? Dumbass.
Digital is always discrete.
yes and thanks to vector graphics you don't need image strips at all anymore. continuously movement in :wink:

Stefken
KVRian
1137 posts since 9 Nov, 2016

Re: Powerful synths that are CPU friendly?

Post Sun May 26, 2019 12:50 pm

Image strips are still used. And continious doesn't exist in digital. Even if you sample air pressure 44100 times a second... it's still discrete.

Crizzle
KVRer
18 posts since 25 Oct, 2018

Re: Powerful synths that are CPU friendly?

Post Sun May 26, 2019 12:52 pm

so..... Tone 2 synths seem to be cpu friendly....

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BONES
GRRRRRRR!
8174 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Re: Powerful synths that are CPU friendly?

Post Sun May 26, 2019 5:31 pm

exmatproton wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 7:11 am
Ok..now i am sure we are talking 2 different things here.
Yes, I am talking about how GUIs work, because I've made a few over the years, and you're talking about things that are completely irrelevant.
Go2 is running @ 17 FPS (when turning knobs), which make reading the values of a certain parameter inside the plugin a hassle.
How do you know what the refresh rate is and what aspects of the GUI it is affecting? If it is indeed 17fps, I will guarantee you that it only applies to the vector display and the graphical envelope displays, not to the knob animations.

In any event, if you are trying to set a precise value, a refresh rate of 17fps is going to be more than adequate, unless your hand is able to move with incredible precision at speeds that make it a blur to an observer. As I explained the other day, when you are looking for a precise value, you aren't looking at the knob, you are looking at the value display at the top of the GUI or listening for the right spot, so the refresh rate won't matter at all.
The main issue is input lagg when playing notes and turning knobs.
That's your audio latency, it has nothing to do with refresh rates. When playing notes, the GUI doesn't have to do anything, it's the sound engine that takes care of that. i.e. The sound engine doesn't have to wait for the graphic to change in order to execute a command.
There is nothing to say that the sound engine will have the same refresh rate for a parameter value as the GUI. It's entirely possible that even though the GUI is refeshing 60 times a second that the plugin is only updating the value twice a second to reduce the CPU load. Or maybe it is updating at 500fps to minimise "zipper noise". The two things do not have to be linked 1:1, as holding down SHIFT sort of demonstrates.
When i bridge the plugin, there is no such input lagg anymore. So it is kinda fixed with several plugins.
Are you serious? You add an extra abstraction layer between your hands and the instrument and you think that makes it faster? I think this proves that it's all in your head, that you've fixated on something irrelevant and drawn completely invalid conclusions.
chk071 wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 12:04 pm
And how relevant is that with most knobs and faders being able to be moved continuously, and not in 5 lousy steps?
But they aren't, that's my point. If the GUI is vectors then it will matter but if the GUI uses bitmaps, like the vast majority of plugins, then the knob movement is almost certainly a pre-rendered animation with a fixed number of frames. It could be two frames - on and off - or it could be 63 frames (an odd number of frames is required for the centre position to be precisely half-way). Most I've worked with have been 30-odd frames, which is usually plenty. Think of it like the second hand on a clock - most of them click from one second to the next, only a few sweep smoothly around the dial.
If you've got any fully skinnable plugins, go and have a look in the skin folders and see what the knob graphics look like.
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Teksonik
KVRAF
12522 posts since 16 Sep, 2001 from Las Vegas,USA

Re: Powerful synths that are CPU friendly?

Post Sun May 26, 2019 6:27 pm

exmatproton wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 7:11 am
I, however, found a workaround in my DAW. When i bridge the plugin, there is no such input lagg anymore.
That certainly seems counter intuitive doesn't it ? You wouldn't think that Bridging something would fix anything or make anything perform better. :?

Anyway I've done a bunch of patches for Go2 and have used it in several projects and haven't noticed any GUI lag at all.

But the way we each use the plugin is probably different so different results. :shrug:
None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

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MuzikFreq
KVRist
72 posts since 29 Apr, 2019

Re: Powerful synths that are CPU friendly?

Post Sun May 26, 2019 10:36 pm

Y'all still talking about framerates...🙄

Ana2 seems to be light.
But yet to put it through a good hard test.

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exmatproton
KVRAF
2288 posts since 25 Apr, 2011

Re: Powerful synths that are CPU friendly?

Post Sun May 26, 2019 11:00 pm

Teksonik wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 6:27 pm
exmatproton wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 7:11 am
I, however, found a workaround in my DAW. When i bridge the plugin, there is no such input lagg anymore.
That certainly seems counter intuitive doesn't it ? You wouldn't think that Bridging something would fix anything or make anything perform better. :?

Anyway I've done a bunch of patches for Go2 and have used it in several projects and haven't noticed any GUI lag at all.

But the way we each use the plugin is probably different so different results. :shrug:
Well, i guess the wrapper of FL Studio does this. Just tested it with several plugins and yeah, when bridged, the UI of those plugins run like they were running before bridging, but the FL Studio UI keeps a steady 60fps with no more input lags.
Not even going to respond to BONES, as he has no clue what is happening here; audio latency? Really? Hehehe. Bull. Running at a steady 192 samples without problem. The reported latency stays the same and the input lagg is eratic, changing all the time when such a plugin isn't bridged. When bridged the audio latency is still the same, the input lagg is gone and FL Studio is running @ 60 fps. Nuff said

EDIT: from 'the FLS manual': "Bridging opens a plugin in a separate process outside FL Studio. This means Windows sees the plugin as a separate program and we can do more things with it. Non-bridged plugins are invisible to Windows, inside FL Studio. Both 32 and 64 Bit plugins can be bridged."

kv331
KVRAF
5694 posts since 14 Nov, 2006 from Ankara, Turkey

Re: Powerful synths that are CPU friendly?

Post Mon May 27, 2019 12:07 am

exmatproton wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 1:41 am
Synthmaster One is another one that is "unusable" for me.
Aside from the UI performance, did you compare SynthMaster or SynthMaster One's audio engine CPU performance to other synths at all? You don't need to have the UI open when tracking.
Works at KV331 Audio
SynthMaster voted "Best VST/AU Synth of 2016" by MusicRadar readers
SynthMaster One voted "Best New Virtual Instrument of 2017" by MusicRadar readers

kv331
KVRAF
5694 posts since 14 Nov, 2006 from Ankara, Turkey

Re: Powerful synths that are CPU friendly?

Post Mon May 27, 2019 12:11 am

Crizzle wrote:
Thu May 23, 2019 10:59 am
my computer could be a lot better and prefer my synths to not be cpu monsters. I have zebra2 and it is amazing in this regard. What are some other amazing synths that wont kill your cpu?
As the developer, I can confidently say -confirmed by many of our users statements- both SynthMaster and SynthMaster One have low audio engine CPU usage. They also support different engine quality settings: You can turn off oversampling and use a large internal buffer for tracking, and have x4 oversampling + small internal buffer size for offline bounce to disk.
Works at KV331 Audio
SynthMaster voted "Best VST/AU Synth of 2016" by MusicRadar readers
SynthMaster One voted "Best New Virtual Instrument of 2017" by MusicRadar readers

User avatar
exmatproton
KVRAF
2288 posts since 25 Apr, 2011

Re: Powerful synths that are CPU friendly?

Post Mon May 27, 2019 12:27 am

kv331 wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 12:07 am
exmatproton wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 1:41 am
Synthmaster One is another one that is "unusable" for me.
Aside from the UI performance, did you compare SynthMaster or SynthMaster One's audio engine CPU performance to other synths at all? You don't need to have the UI open when tracking.
Ow..the CPU performance is excellent! I mean, apart from the ui issues, it is running good :tu:

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