Will NKS go the distance?

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
Echoes in the Attic
KVRAF
6621 posts since 12 May, 2008

Post Wed May 29, 2019 8:45 am

8 knobs would be ok if it also had 8 buttons (like Kore) and allowed you to jump directly to a page.
Last edited by Echoes in the Attic on Wed May 29, 2019 5:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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whitecloud
KVRist
357 posts since 16 Dec, 2008 from Washington State

Re: Will NKS go the distance?

Post Wed May 29, 2019 3:37 pm

[/quote]
It is possible to record the MIDI notes from the arp and chords from KK (at least in Ableton Live, don't know about Logic).
[/quote]

I have the current KK S49 and have tried recording arp in Cubase and Live 10 and no Arp Midi notes
are generated on a track just note on/off so has to be left on in KK and chosen instrument within it will have arp when it is "on". Let alone trying to drive another VSTi track or external synths. If you could point me in the right direction how I can achieve desired effect I'd appreciate it
EDIT: Google search brought up some NI articles detailing how to record arp notes in DAW(Ableton). I will try this later

functionform
KVRist
367 posts since 13 May, 2017 from Virginia

Re: Will NKS go the distance?

Post Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:18 pm

How difficult is it to set up a template for an unsupported synth? I'm thinking stuff like KX77's synths which begs for a physical component. Midi learn isn't that hard, but having named parameters on the S series keyboards seems like a real nice feature to smooth out the writing workflow when you want to tweak some sounds and don't want to reach for the mouse to change your view.

Echoes in the Attic
KVRAF
6621 posts since 12 May, 2008

Re: Will NKS go the distance?

Post Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:33 pm

functionform wrote:
Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:18 pm
How difficult is it to set up a template for an unsupported synth? I'm thinking stuff like KX77's synths which begs for a physical component. Midi learn isn't that hard, but having named parameters on the S series keyboards seems like a real nice feature to smooth out the writing workflow when you want to tweak some sounds and don't want to reach for the mouse to change your view.
It's easy. However I'd recommend Novation SL series for mapping to hardware. One page of parameters on a Novation SL (mkI or mkII) will be equivalent to about 4-6 pages of a Komplete Kontrol Keyboard, since Novation have 8 sliders, 24 knobs and 24 buttons that are assignable. And what's nice about Novation automap is that if you one day decide to delete automap and stop using it, the regular VSTs load in place normally where you wrapped versions. It's still the best hardware mapping system there has ever been for plugins by far. And I'm a little concerned now that they aren't making the mk2's anymore as they too are going in the direction of less controls on the mk3's.
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crimsonwarlock
KVRAF
2078 posts since 18 Apr, 2001 from The Netherlands

Re: Will NKS go the distance?

Post Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:36 am

It doesn't matter how many controls you have available for, because with today's synths it will never be enough and you have to use pages anyway. So, for me, it doesn't matter how many pages I need to map an instrument but rather how the system presents those pages. On my Komplete Kontrol keyboard the pages are named like you want ant a page can have different named sections. To me that makes all the difference. I have no experience with Novation keyboards but I have a LaunchControl XL, indeed with much more controls but I need to memorize what is on which page (besides the fact there are no scrible strips).

Setting up a template for an unsupported synth is pretty easy (if you know what to take care of) and takes little time (although creating custom graphics for it, as I did, can be a bit cumbersome). However, moving presets to the NKS preset system can take a lot of time, although there are solutions for that already as well.
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Echoes in the Attic
KVRAF
6621 posts since 12 May, 2008

Re: Will NKS go the distance?

Post Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:15 pm

crimsonwarlock wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:36 am
It doesn't matter how many controls you have available for, because with today's synths it will never be enough and you have to use pages anyway. So, for me, it doesn't matter how many pages I need to map an instrument but rather how the system presents those pages. On my Komplete Kontrol keyboard the pages are named like you want ant a page can have different named sections. To me that makes all the difference. I have no experience with Novation keyboards but I have a LaunchControl XL, indeed with much more controls but I need to memorize what is on which page (besides the fact there are no scrible strips).
Unless you are looking at the computer screen, you also don't know what page to go to on Komplete Kontrol and have to page over a bunch of times. And it matters how many controls you have if you like to synths that are designed like hardware synths, such as vintage emulations. Roland Cloud, Repro, Diva, Tyrell, Korg, GForce, some Arturia ones, Tal, Poly-Ana, and others like Sylenth and some Tone2 synths even, are all great examples of fully mappable synths. Of course you can't with Omnisphere or Absynth or Alchemy etc. but there are plenty of soft synths where you can get a hardware experience. But you need enough controls. You can't get proper full access to all controls with Komplete Kontrol. It's really for having access when you want to automate or tweak presets. Not for sound design. The combination can be good though like I've said before because then you can be on any combination of two pages between the two systems.
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Sascha Franck
KVRAF
12509 posts since 14 Nov, 2000 from Hannover / Germany

Re: Will NKS go the distance?

Post Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:57 pm

All I know is that I hate the KK browser. Clumsy, too small, not related to anything you know from your OS file browsers, etc.
I also don't get it how I can't just easily resize the KK AU window (under Logic) when it automatically resizes once there's a plugin loaded requiring more space.
But all that is perfectly in line with NI always failing on pretty much all organisational aspects. There's files coming from NI literally spread all over the place. Pretty much impossible to do whatever clean ups. Their abysmal browsers only add to this frustration and with NKS, these things have gotten anything but better.

And yet, I'm pretty much excited about my Komplete 12 Ultimate package which should arrive any day from now. But they should really do some housekeeping.
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JoeCat
KVRian
1201 posts since 19 May, 2011 from North Carolina

Re: Will NKS go the distance?

Post Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:06 pm

I'm not into Komplete Kontrol but do have an M32 'cause it's a great 2 1/2 octave keyboard for the $. It's pretty quick to map, but I'm hoping for an update for Ableton to allow me to simply default those 8 knobs to the 8 macros - I rack everything.

It CAN be done with scripts, but I think you have to use multiple and do some cranky housekeeping. I believe they're working on an update. As it is now the knobs default to track volume faders and (w/Shift) pan - to things I rarely touch, relying instead on automation usually.

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crimsonwarlock
KVRAF
2078 posts since 18 Apr, 2001 from The Netherlands

Re: Will NKS go the distance?

Post Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:30 pm

Echoes in the Attic wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:15 pm
Unless you are looking at the computer screen, you also don't know what page to go to on Komplete Kontrol and have to page over a bunch of times.
Your wrong about that. The pages on my Komplete Kontrol are showing the part of the synth I'm editing, like OSC1, OSC2, Filter, or whatever name I want to set for that group of controls. Paging is as easy as looking over a hardware synth to the different sections of the synth.
Echoes in the Attic wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:15 pm
And it matters how many controls you have if you like to synths that are designed like hardware synths, such as vintage emulations. Roland Cloud, Repro, Diva, Tyrell, Korg, GForce, some Arturia ones, Tal, Poly-Ana, and others like Sylenth and some Tone2 synths even, are all great examples of fully mappable synths.
For example, from your list above, I have mapped Tyrell completely here, and because of the named pages and sections within those pages, it IS like working with a hardware version of it.

I wouldn't mind though, to have 16 instead of 8 rotaries, and not being able to map the buttons in NKS-mode is a bit of a hassle (you CAN map the buttons in MIDI-mode though), but it wouldn't surprise me if they become mapable in some future update of the software.
Echoes in the Attic wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:15 pm
Of course you can't with Omnisphere or Absynth or Alchemy etc. but there are plenty of soft synths where you can get a hardware experience. But you need enough controls.
No, you need enough pages, as no MIDI-controller will ever have enough controls anyway to map all, even with a synth like Tyrell.

Komplete Kontrol has no limit in the amount of pages so completely mapping something like Omnisphere or Alchemy can probably be done. I've mapped Dexed completely, which has a LOT of controls and I'm currently mapping Surge, which is also incredibly deep, yet no problems there. Komplete Kontrol even has a very big advantage there as the mapping is part of a preset, meaning that something like the umpteen options to select and route FX inside a synth like Surge can be mapped exactly based on the FX used and routed in a specific sound design. Try that with any other MIDI-controller.
Echoes in the Attic wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:15 pm
You can't get proper full access to all controls with Komplete Kontrol.
Yes you can :D
Echoes in the Attic wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:15 pm
It's really for having access when you want to automate or tweak presets. Not for sound design.
Says who.... I see nothing to that extend on the NI website or in the user manuals.

I bought the Komplete Kontrol 61 MK2 specifically for sound design. I have literally been searching for years to get a solution that comes close to the hardware experience. As mentioned before I have several other controllers (and had more in the past), none of those give me the hands-on experience I have now with the NI keyboard. It is the first time I'm feeling like working with hardware again. Of course this is a very personal thing, YMMV and all that 8)
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Echoes in the Attic
KVRAF
6621 posts since 12 May, 2008

Re: Will NKS go the distance?

Post Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:15 pm

Ok well like I said if you enjoy switching between 4-6 pages to access the same controls that are available on one novation sL page, and enjoy turning a knob that is supposed to be a button, then all the power to you!
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crimsonwarlock
KVRAF
2078 posts since 18 Apr, 2001 from The Netherlands

Re: Will NKS go the distance?

Post Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:29 pm

Echoes in the Attic wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:15 pm
Ok well like I said if you enjoy switching between 4-6 pages to access the same controls that are available on one novation sL page, and enjoy turning a knob that is supposed to be a button, then all the power to you!
As I said I would like the buttons to be mapable but having to 'turn a knob' to switch something is just another way but nothing problematic. By the way, do you get assignment labels for the buttons on that Novation controller? If not that means you still have to remember what's mapped where which is NOT a hardware synth experience. My LaunchControl XL has loads of buttons, but without labeling it's pretty hard to use effectively. Again, switching pages is no problem when the pages are labeled and acting like the module areas on a hardware synth's faceplate.
CrimsonWarlock aka TechnoGremlin, using Reaper and a fine selection of freeware plugins.

Ragnarök VST-synthesizer co-creator with Full Bucket

Echoes in the Attic
KVRAF
6621 posts since 12 May, 2008

Re: Will NKS go the distance?

Post Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:40 am

crimsonwarlock wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:29 pm
As I said I would like the buttons to be mapable but having to 'turn a knob' to switch something is just another way but nothing problematic. By the way, do you get assignment labels for the buttons on that Novation controller? If not that means you still have to remember what's mapped where which is NOT a hardware synth experience.
Yes of course everything has labels. It has screens that show whatever row of parameter names you want to see.
crimsonwarlock wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:29 pm
My LaunchControl XL has loads of buttons, but without labeling it's pretty hard to use effectively. Again, switching pages is no problem when the pages are labeled and acting like the module areas on a hardware synth's faceplate.
Sure. And all you have to do with komplete if you want full hands on control, is to press a button 16 times to get from page 1 of parameters to page 17. To be fair, I'm also annoyed that on the Novation SL you have to press page up/down to get to other parameter pages, just like Komplete. However having 5 times less pages makes this a little less painful.
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crimsonwarlock
KVRAF
2078 posts since 18 Apr, 2001 from The Netherlands

Re: Will NKS go the distance?

Post Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:44 am

Echoes in the Attic wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:40 am
However having 5 times less pages makes this a little less painful.
Fair enough. I just don't perceive paging through well-labeled pages as a problem :D
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Ragnarök VST-synthesizer co-creator with Full Bucket

Echoes in the Attic
KVRAF
6621 posts since 12 May, 2008

Re: Will NKS go the distance?

Post Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:55 am

There's one thing that makes things like Novation SL and Komplete both very different (and worse) than hardware synths, even digital ones with their own pages of sub menus. And that is the fact that the whole control surface is a single page. If you think of a digital hardware synth like a virus, there are lots of knobs used for multiple functions but different areas can change "pages" independently, meaning that you can get different combinations of parameters available at the same time. For example if you are tweaking a parameter and it's modulation, like a filter and an envelope or lfo that controls that filter, you probably want to adjust the filter and modulation amounts at the same time to get it where you want. Usually no problem with hardware. With KK/Novation it is more likely you will often want to adjust two related parameters that are not on the same page. So it ends up being something like adjust filter cutoff, then press page up14 times to get to lfo 4 amount, then press page down 14 times to get back to cutoff, then press page up 8 times to get to envelope 3 sustain... etc. This is why I highly suggest having two control surfaces because you always have access to any combination of pages at the same time from the two surfaces. Big difference.
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crimsonwarlock
KVRAF
2078 posts since 18 Apr, 2001 from The Netherlands

Re: Will NKS go the distance?

Post Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:09 pm

Echoes in the Attic wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 5:55 am
So it ends up being something like adjust filter cutoff, then press page up14 times to get to lfo 4 amount, then press page down 14 times to get back to cutoff, then press page up 8 times to get to envelope 3 sustain... etc.
This is why I do my own mapping and don't depend on the default mapping. So my pages have a certain 'flow' that makes editing easy (for me). When I'm doing sound design, I work in a certain order though the parts of the synth and my pages reflect that.

Besides that, editing Dexed from my 'paged' KK interface is lightyears ahead of what I had to do back in the eighties on my DX7 :D
CrimsonWarlock aka TechnoGremlin, using Reaper and a fine selection of freeware plugins.

Ragnarök VST-synthesizer co-creator with Full Bucket

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