Beware of account takeovers

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Dallon426
KVRist
86 posts since 2 May, 2018

Post Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:15 am

I was actually considering selling my account for all of my ILOK instruments and software. How does that work?

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mgw38
KVRAF
1908 posts since 26 Jul, 2015 from Philadelphia

Re: Beware of account takeovers

Post Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:52 am

martinjuenke wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 10:49 pm
mladi wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 10:42 pm
martinjuenke wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 10:35 pm
Perhaps you should change the thread title in:
Beware of Initial Audio
Just a thought...
Why?
Because the whole case here is based on his experience with them.
This is too generalized imo.
I have a second story. A lot less interesting but also ends with the loss of a plugin. :)

It is a matter of principle. 100% of all account takeovers I ever made went bad.

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martinjuenke
KVRAF
4101 posts since 28 Dec, 2015 from Hanover, Germany

Re: Beware of account takeovers

Post Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:55 am

mgw38 wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:52 am
martinjuenke wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 10:49 pm
mladi wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 10:42 pm
martinjuenke wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 10:35 pm
Perhaps you should change the thread title in:
Beware of Initial Audio
Just a thought...
Why?
Because the whole case here is based on his experience with them.
This is too generalized imo.
I have a second story. A lot less interesting but also ends with the loss of a plugin. :)

It is a matter of principle. 100% of all account takeovers I ever made went bad.
However, 100% of my account takeovers went quite smoothly...
Look with whom you‘re dealing!
Flowing atmospheric music
http://www.sonoryth.bandcamp.com/music

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mgw38
KVRAF
1908 posts since 26 Jul, 2015 from Philadelphia

Re: Beware of account takeovers

Post Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:09 am

martinjuenke wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:55 am
However, 100% of my account takeovers went quite smoothly...
Look with whom you‘re dealing!
Give it time. It will happen eventually. :lol:

Maybe I should mention the second story. When Monoplugs upgraded their user account system, they reset all user accounts to the original purchase email. Puff. Gone.

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martinjuenke
KVRAF
4101 posts since 28 Dec, 2015 from Hanover, Germany

Re: Beware of account takeovers

Post Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:16 am

mgw38 wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:09 am
martinjuenke wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:55 am
However, 100% of my account takeovers went quite smoothly...
Look with whom you‘re dealing!
Give it time. It will happen eventually. :lol:

Maybe I should mention the second story. When Monoplugs upgraded their user account system, they reset all user accounts to the original purchase email. Puff. Gone.
Maybe. Maybe you and me will a victim of a fraudulent Paypal charge back (hope not). Maybe you and me will be black mailed by idiotic buyers to take back sold items (happened to me), maybe...
Yes, the second hand market has its risks and these are not restricted to account takeovers. Surely you agree.
Flowing atmospheric music
http://www.sonoryth.bandcamp.com/music

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Forgotten
KVRAF
2130 posts since 15 Apr, 2019 from Nowhere

Re: Beware of account takeovers

Post Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:07 am

I can see why developers tell people they're SOL in these situations, especially if their license agreement prohibits it in the first place. Doesn't excuse the behavior of Initial Audio though, sounds like they're just being jerks about it.

Good for everyone to get a heads up on this though, so thanks for sharing your experiences mgw38.

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mgw38
KVRAF
1908 posts since 26 Jul, 2015 from Philadelphia

Re: Beware of account takeovers

Post Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:16 am

martinjuenke wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:16 am
mgw38 wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:09 am
martinjuenke wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:55 am
However, 100% of my account takeovers went quite smoothly...
Look with whom you‘re dealing!
Give it time. It will happen eventually. :lol:

Maybe I should mention the second story. When Monoplugs upgraded their user account system, they reset all user accounts to the original purchase email. Puff. Gone.
Maybe. Maybe you and me will a victim of a fraudulent Paypal charge back (hope not). Maybe you and me will be black mailed by idiotic buyers to take back sold items (happened to me), maybe...
Yes, the second hand market has its risks and these are not restricted to account takeovers. Surely you agree.
My point is that with a regular transaction that maybe is limited to the time of the transaction, more or less. With an account takeover that maybe is unlimited in time and therefore becomes much more certain.

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martinjuenke
KVRAF
4101 posts since 28 Dec, 2015 from Hanover, Germany

Re: Beware of account takeovers

Post Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:30 am

mgw38 wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:16 am
martinjuenke wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:16 am
mgw38 wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:09 am
martinjuenke wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:55 am
However, 100% of my account takeovers went quite smoothly...
Look with whom you‘re dealing!
Give it time. It will happen eventually. :lol:

Maybe I should mention the second story. When Monoplugs upgraded their user account system, they reset all user accounts to the original purchase email. Puff. Gone.
Maybe. Maybe you and me will a victim of a fraudulent Paypal charge back (hope not). Maybe you and me will be black mailed by idiotic buyers to take back sold items (happened to me), maybe...
Yes, the second hand market has its risks and these are not restricted to account takeovers. Surely you agree.
My point is that with a regular transaction that maybe is limited to the time of the transaction, more or less. With an account takeover that maybe is unlimited in time and therefore becomes much more certain.
Sorry, I disagree.
My examples (Paypal charge back, black mailing) are possible later on as well.
We should settle this argument now imo.
Flowing atmospheric music
http://www.sonoryth.bandcamp.com/music

BURN-ADDiCT
KVRist
54 posts since 20 Dec, 2017 from Ekangala, Gauteng, South Africa

Re: Beware of account takeovers

Post Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:22 am

agharta wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:58 am
Some companies actually allow account takeovers so seemed harsh to impose a blanket ban. Tracktion are one.
Plugin Boutique too.

A blanket ban though would actually do more good than bad. Knowing scammers, this wont be enough to prevent account scams but some progress is better than no progress.

Also, another thing that'd be really awesome is if users with more than one bad review in the feedback thread are highlighed (like maybe a red font warning next to their name..... like twitter verification badge but this time verifying that other users exercise caution).

agharta
KVRist
338 posts since 10 Jan, 2018

Re: Beware of account takeovers

Post Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:44 am

BURN-ADDiCT wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:22 am
A blanket ban though would actually do more good than bad. Knowing scammers, this wont be enough to prevent account scams but some progress is better than no progress.
Without having access to hard data we can but guess whether the cons outweigh the pros.
A blanket ban would definitely have a negative impact so there is a downside to this.

I am wary of swap deals on here but it's not for me to suggest they are banned.

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mgw38
KVRAF
1908 posts since 26 Jul, 2015 from Philadelphia

Re: Beware of account takeovers

Post Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:07 am

martinjuenke wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:30 am
Sorry, I disagree.
My examples (Paypal charge back, black mailing) are possible later on as well.
We should settle this argument now imo.
Paypal disputes are possible up to 180 days after the purchase. After that it is over. My account takeovers went sour between 1 and 2 years after the transaction.

User avatar
martinjuenke
KVRAF
4101 posts since 28 Dec, 2015 from Hanover, Germany

Re: Beware of account takeovers

Post Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:42 am

mgw38 wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:07 am
martinjuenke wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:30 am
Sorry, I disagree.
My examples (Paypal charge back, black mailing) are possible later on as well.
We should settle this argument now imo.
Paypal disputes are possible up to 180 days after the purchase. After that it is over. My account takeovers went sour between 1 and 2 years after the transaction.
C‘mon, let‘s stop our argument.
Flowing atmospheric music
http://www.sonoryth.bandcamp.com/music

agharta
KVRist
338 posts since 10 Jan, 2018

Re: Beware of account takeovers

Post Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:46 am

mgw38 wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:07 am
Paypal disputes are possible up to 180 days after the purchase. After that it is over. My account takeovers went sour between 1 and 2 years after the transaction.
I imagine that's rare and maybe you are in the 1%. Bummer for you but no so relevant to most of us. :ud:

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mgw38
KVRAF
1908 posts since 26 Jul, 2015 from Philadelphia

Re: Beware of account takeovers

Post Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:46 am

@martinjuenke
:hug:

7blanche
KVRist
154 posts since 19 Oct, 2014

Re: Beware of account takeovers

Post Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:28 am

Just an idea:

Do you still have records of the payment transfer to that person (possibly it could indicate the same e-mail and maybe the relevant item what it was paid for) ?

Do you still have messages with that person for agreeing on the price and account takeover ?

mgw38 wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 5:39 am
I posted a note about this in the license transfer thread, but I thought it deserves its own topics since it has a more general relevance. Short version of this post is: Never ever do account takeovers!

I do see quite a few people selling account takeovers these days. An account takeover is when somebody gives you access to the entire account instead of transferring licenses individually. This is usually done in order to circumvent a restrictive license transfer policy. Either the developer does not allow license transfers at all or the seller wants to minimize license transfer costs. In almost all cases it is a violation of somebody's terms somewhere.

Over the years I bought and sold a lot of stuff on KVR. And two times, I have to admit, I also agreed to an account takeover. In both cases I was aware of what I was doing. The amount of money involved was not even worth mentioning and I was ok with the risk of potentially losing the licenses at any time. But it is worth noting that in both cases the transfer eventually ended up going sour.

The second one happened yesterday with an Initial Audio account I took over about a year ago. This one was particularly annoying, because Initial Audio decided to go nuclear on me and did that thing where they start verbally insulting you because, apparently, you committed the crime of the century. I am going to restrain myself and not turn this into a rant. (However, feel free to throw in the occasional virtual "f**k you, Initial Audio" while you reading this. ;))

What happened is that the guy who had originally sold me the account took his original purchase receipt, claimed that he has lost access to the email the account was registered to and sort of repossessed the account that way. And as it turns out he already sold it again to the next guy.

The problem is that if that happens to you, there is absolutely nothing you can do. The time window during which you can dispute a Paypal payment has long passed, so that money is gone. And as long as the original owner provides sufficient proof of the original purchase, the developer has the legal obligation to reestablish his/her access.

So, regardless of what people tell you, there is absolutely no way you can safeguard an account takeover. The original owner will always be able to reenable his/her access to the account at any point in time. And there are apparently people who use that trick to sell the same account over and over again.

Because of that, I think it would be appropriate for this forum to ban account takeovers completely. They are simply never safe.

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