Distortion as a built in effect: Why so much aliasing?
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 14985 posts since 26 Jun, 2006 from San Francisco Bay Area
Distortion... the final frontier...
Why does it usually suck? Massive X has a particularly good one if you put it in HQ mode, but it's pretty tame. Hardware synths with built in types of overdrive often sound great, yet plugins like RePro or Dune 3 alias like a stuck pig and it's very noticeable towards the top of the range of a 61 key controller. What gives? Is it too CPU intensive to give the type of oversampling that is needed?
Why does it usually suck? Massive X has a particularly good one if you put it in HQ mode, but it's pretty tame. Hardware synths with built in types of overdrive often sound great, yet plugins like RePro or Dune 3 alias like a stuck pig and it's very noticeable towards the top of the range of a 61 key controller. What gives? Is it too CPU intensive to give the type of oversampling that is needed?
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- KVRAF
- 35405 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany
Which ones are you talking about specifically?zerocrossing wrote: ↑Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:24 pm Hardware synths with built in types of overdrive often sound great
I think saturation and distortion is one of the hardest things to get right in software.
Last edited by chk071 on Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- KVRAF
- 11001 posts since 15 Apr, 2019 from Nowhere
Maybe because distortion can add harmonics above the Nyquist frequency that might not be present in the undistorted sound? Or that minor aliasing is amplified because of the additional harmonics?
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 14985 posts since 26 Jun, 2006 from San Francisco Bay Area
Let’s see...chk071 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:30 pmWhich ones are you talking about specifically?zerocrossing wrote: ↑Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:24 pm Hardware synths with built in types of overdrive often sound great
I think saturation and distortion is one of the hardest things to get right in software.
Prophet 6, 12
Pro 2
ATC-X
002
Peak
Those all have really good and useful distortion. The Peak’s is even polyphonic (filter distortion)
Zerocrossing Media
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 14985 posts since 26 Jun, 2006 from San Francisco Bay Area
True, and made more prominent with the natural compression that happens during the overdrive process.
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- GRRRRRRR!
- 15937 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle
I imagine that's what it is - bringing out the aliasing that is already present but hard to hear.
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- KVRAF
- 2941 posts since 23 Dec, 2002
I have patched in an Elecktron Analog Drive pedal for distortion duties on synths and guitars. I do find that Amplitube 4 on high quality settings is pretty good to my ears but that Elektron Analog drive is making me smile. Other pedals would do it I am sure .. this one just has more options than some... analog but with midi recall.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdJkzmxLIg8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdJkzmxLIg8
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 14985 posts since 26 Jun, 2006 from San Francisco Bay Area
I’ve got an Analog Four for the same duties, though for guitar I use a Kemper Amp Profiler and a Blackstar HT-5 Dual tube overdrive.Scotty wrote: ↑Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:43 am I have patched in an Elecktron Analog Drive pedal for distortion duties on synths and guitars. I do find that Amplitube 4 on high quality settings is pretty good to my ears but that Elektron Analog drive is making me smile. Other pedals would do it I am sure .. this one just has more options than some... analog but with midi recall.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdJkzmxLIg8
Zerocrossing Media
4th Law of Robotics: When turning evil, display a red indicator light. ~[ ●_● ]~
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 14985 posts since 26 Jun, 2006 from San Francisco Bay Area
Then why not band limit the hell out of it, which sounds better for distortion anyway?
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- KVRAF
- 2941 posts since 23 Dec, 2002
Kemper is on the list for reamping duties - expensive and a few things are ahead of it on the list... also looking at the Analog Heat by Elektron but it is pricey. If you have any shots of your studio posted... I'd love to them. - Scotty
zerocrossing wrote: ↑Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:05 amI’ve got an Analog Four for the same duties, though for guitar I use a Kemper Amp Profiler and a Blackstar HT-5 Dual tube overdrive.Scotty wrote: ↑Thu Jul 18, 2019 2:43 am I have patched in an Elecktron Analog Drive pedal for distortion duties on synths and guitars. I do find that Amplitube 4 on high quality settings is pretty good to my ears but that Elektron Analog drive is making me smile. Other pedals would do it I am sure .. this one just has more options than some... analog but with midi recall.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdJkzmxLIg8
- GRRRRRRR!
- 15937 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle
Don't ask me, I never use notes high enough to notice.zerocrossing wrote: ↑Thu Jul 18, 2019 3:07 amThen why not band limit the hell out of it, which sounds better for distortion anyway?
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- KVRAF
- 23101 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia
Yes. Bandlimiting only won't make it sound better without oversampling, because you can't make a brickwall bandlimiting filter without messing with phase, or if you go with linear phase you introduce latency and pre-ringing, which you don't want in a synth. And doing massive OS per voice to make that happen, yes, that's CPU-expensive.zerocrossing wrote: ↑Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:24 pmIs it too CPU intensive to give the type of oversampling that is needed?
MX is running its whole synth engine at 88.2k internally, then resamples to your project SR. So if you're at the common 44.1/48k, it's effectively 2x oversampled.
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- KVRian
- 1233 posts since 8 May, 2018 from Sweden
Yep, also I think the bandlimiting filter itself probably needs to be oversampled. How else can you filter out frequencies that are above half the operating sample rate of the filter itself?EvilDragon wrote: ↑Thu Jul 18, 2019 5:28 amYes. Bandlimiting only won't make it sound better without oversampling, because you can't make a brickwall bandlimiting filter without messing with phase, or if you go with linear phase you introduce latency and pre-ringing, which you don't want in a synth. And doing massive OS per voice to make that happen, yes, that's CPU-expensive.zerocrossing wrote: ↑Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:24 pmIs it too CPU intensive to give the type of oversampling that is needed?
MX is running its whole synth engine at 88.2k internally, then resamples to your project SR. So if you're at the common 44.1/48k, it's effectively 2x oversampled.
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- KVRist
- 128 posts since 18 May, 2016
Everything the OP listed has analog distortion/saturating VCA unless I'm mistaken. Distortion is probably the most difficult thing to do in digital, you need to oversample the hell out of it. Have a look at Cytomic Scream. And run high sample rates. Or just use your analogs and humblebrag about them?