Massive X or Hive 2. Need an opinion.

[Functional]

I don't get it. Why people need to visualise envelope? Is listening not enough anymore? It's a serious question.

So why making an interface in the first place?! Just put sliders (one beside/under the other) and get done with it (something like the edit mode in Cubase)! You don't need anymore than that because listening is more than enough for you!

+1
Some people don't even make the effort to think before posting.

Oh yes, I'm really stupid that I believe that music can be made with ears and not with eyes
I don't even feel sorry for you if you must have visual help to make music

Well, do you have eyes? Do you use them when you make music?

If the answer is yes, then how would you know to begin with whats it like to make music while being visually impaired? I mean I'm all for making it easier to those who are visually impaired but I'm going to take my guess that anyone who actually is visually impaired will probably have hard time with music as a hobby / career outside of specific scenarios that do not involve use of DAW or instruments which are designed for people who have sight. I'm sure it's possible, but it'll come with huge caveats such as custom-designed (and likely expensive) devices and/or assistants.

I honestly think comments such as these are made with no actual thought behind them; just this fixation on the idea that all you need to make some good music "is like, a pair of ears and some jazz cigarettes, man"

[pdxindy]

Yeah but ADSR is simple in MX

the ADSR is simple in Hive. It has 4 sliders. MX Envelope has 10 knobs. I wouldn't call that simple... but hey...

[Stefken]

I don't get it. Why people need to visualise envelope? Is listening not enough anymore? It's a serious question.

I'm not arguing that visual display of the envelope is a must. However, listening isn't enough anymore. Because today the tools are so complex and multi-layered. The same audio result can be obtained through multiple means.

If I have a classic analog synth... say a Prophet 5. It's easy to understand how a sound is created by listening to the result. Now take one of the various complex software synths. I can listen to the audio result and just not know how it is created. Is it samples? wavetables? VA? FM? or some combination. Is the movement in the sound from an envelope? or some oscFX? or part of the sample? and so on.

Also, specific to MX... Look at the ADSR in Hive. The sliders are basically a graphical representation. A glance shows the basic Env shape. Then look at the MX Env. It is fairly complex and so not easy and immediate to understand the shape of the Env. And unlike a classic analog synth with maybe 2 envelopes, you can have lots of them in MX. All of which greatly increases the complexity... plus you can modulate one envelope by another.

So yes... some helpful visual feedback is more important today because the synths are much more complex.

Yeah but ADSR is simple in MX and Im getting impression that for some people commenting here, having visual feedback for a basic ADSR like in MX is a must to be able to make music.
I pointed before that it's nice to have it but common, it will not stop anyone from making music. Or maybe I'm old and now without visuals people can't make music anymore?

You don't need much to make music. In Gent here we have an act that makes music with thrashcans, plastic tubes and shampoo bottles.

But visuals are a nice aid and as Pdxindy stated : with a complex synth , the signal path can be complex.
If you claim to come up with the next generation synth, but lack basic features that the original had 10 years ago. Hmmm.

Sure, you can music with it, without a doubt, but from a product design point of view, you are not scoring points with this omission. Inserting a static image that eats screen real estate instead, is pretty funny really.

[pdxindy]

Oh yes, I'm really stupid that I believe that music can be made with ears and not with eyes
I don't even feel sorry for you if you must have visual help to make music

Okay... put a blindfold on and lets see you make music on a computer...

[Hink]

ok...and this tangent need not go on...you both made your point now move on please

[pixel85]

Oh yes, I'm really stupid that I believe that music can be made with ears and not with eyes
I don't even feel sorry for you if you must have visual help to make music

Okay... put a blindfold on and lets see you make music on a computer...

This is what I usually do: assigning knobs and then playing/tweaking controller with monitor turned off
Ps. You're aware that this is all about Massive X and visuals of ADSR / LFO right? Not about DAW, EQ and anything that is not related to this topic

[recursive one]

Spire also has static envelope graphs, i remember they promised to fix it but never did.

I don't know if you and others are aware, but in Spire, those envelope graphs are actually switches, where you set the curve of the envelope stages by clicking on them. They are not useless images, they show the envelope curve type.

You learn something every day

Thanks, i didn't know that. I feel really stupid, i thought I knew spire well enough

[realtrance]

I don't get it. Why people need to visualise envelope? Is listening not enough anymore? It's a serious question.

So why making an interface in the first place?! Just put sliders (one beside/under the other) and get done with it (something like the edit mode in Cubase)! You don't need anymore than that because listening is more than enough for you!

+1
Some people don't even make the effort to think before posting.

Oh yes, I'm really stupid that I believe that music can be made with ears and not with eyes
I don't even feel sorry for you if you must have visual help to make music

Well, do you have eyes? Do you use them when you make music?

If the answer is yes, then how would you know to begin with whats it like to make music while being visually impaired? I mean I'm all for making it easier to those who are visually impaired but I'm going to take my guess that anyone who actually is visually impaired will probably have hard time with music as a hobby / career outside of specific scenarios that do not involve use of DAW or instruments which are designed for people who have sight. I'm sure it's possible, but it'll come with huge caveats such as custom-designed (and likely expensive) devices and/or assistants.

I honestly think comments such as these are made with no actual thought behind them; just this fixation on the idea that all you need to make some good music "is like, a pair of ears and some jazz cigarettes, man"

You have not heard of Ray Charles? Stevie Wonder?

The latter is a synth pioneer, btw. He didn’t need no stinkin’ envelopes, well except the ones all his sweethearts sent him.

[Functional]

You have not heard of Ray Charles? Stevie Wonder?

The latter is a synth pioneer, btw. He didn’t need no stinkin’ envelopes, well except the ones all his sweethearts sent him.

Wonder has an assistant. I won't argue too much with this tangent but I will say that there are probably hundreds of brilliantly capable blind people who didn't have the fortune of being recognized at the age of 11 and as such, cannot necessarily afford an assistant to work as the eyes. I think it's really cool that someone who is blind CAN do what Stevie does - all the power to him. But we can't pretend that it's just that simple even for him, 'cause it's not.

[pdxindy]

You have not heard of Ray Charles? Stevie Wonder?

The latter is a synth pioneer, btw. He didn’t need no stinkin’ envelopes, well except the ones all his sweethearts sent him.

Wonder has an assistant. I won't argue too much with this tangent but I will say that there are probably hundreds of brilliantly capable blind people who didn't have the fortune of being recognized at the age of 11 and as such, cannot necessarily afford an assistant to work as the eyes. I think it's really cool that someone who is blind CAN do what Stevie does - all the power to him. But we can't pretend that it's just that simple even for him, 'cause it's not.

Then there is Beethoven...

The world is diverse and there is no one right or superior way.

[Hink]

You have not heard of Ray Charles? Stevie Wonder?

The latter is a synth pioneer, btw. He didn’t need no stinkin’ envelopes, well except the ones all his sweethearts sent him.

Wonder has an assistant. I won't argue too much with this tangent but I will say that there are probably hundreds of brilliantly capable blind people who didn't have the fortune of being recognized at the age of 11 and as such, cannot necessarily afford an assistant to work as the eyes. I think it's really cool that someone who is blind CAN do what Stevie does - all the power to him. But we can't pretend that it's just that simple even for him, 'cause it's not.

I had two instances when I worked music retail...first was in a small mom and pop chain and I work in a store in Davis sq Somerville Mass which is on the subway into Boston. We had a cs-80 in the store and this gentleman who was completely sightless would come in from the subway several days a week head to the back of my store and play with that until we sold it. The guy was a genius on it and he taught me a lot, he had no problems at all. I use to try and catch a buzz before he got there so I could enjoy the show (he would always come in at the same time, different days but always the same time).

The second was at MARs music, where I actually worked in part in the keyboard department. Another completely sightless man came in looking for a digital piano, I picked up on the fact right away that this was a learning moment for me. (he had someone with him, couldn't walk to this store or take public transportation) First he asked if we had a real pedal for sustain and not one of those footswitches, I grabbed one for him. Next we walked around the pianos, he asked me not to tell him what they were, he tried the action of the keys by playing just a few seconds then he went right to the highest key and played it a few times, tried them all then he got to the Yamaha P-80.

When he played that highest key he said "it plinks, can I get a bench please?" He then proceeded to play beautifully, the P-80 had other instruments on it and he had no issues navigating through (nor would I expect him to tbh). It was great, he bought a P-80, a sustain pedal and a bench. It truly was a learning experience for me because I used that plink to sell quite a few more, as he explained and at the time he was right, most digital pianos sounded electronic so the highest note sounded too good to be real

[realtrance]

I grew up in Mass., as we called it back then! Thanks for the reminiscence, brought back my own fond memories.

[pdxindy]

You have not heard of Ray Charles? Stevie Wonder?

The latter is a synth pioneer, btw. He didn’t need no stinkin’ envelopes, well except the ones all his sweethearts sent him.

Wonder has an assistant. I won't argue too much with this tangent but I will say that there are probably hundreds of brilliantly capable blind people who didn't have the fortune of being recognized at the age of 11 and as such, cannot necessarily afford an assistant to work as the eyes. I think it's really cool that someone who is blind CAN do what Stevie does - all the power to him. But we can't pretend that it's just that simple even for him, 'cause it's not.

I had two instances when I worked music retail...first was in a small mom and pop chain and I work in a store in Davis sq Somerville Mass which is on the subway into Boston. We had a cs-80 in the store and this gentleman who was completely sightless would come in from the subway several days a week head to the back of my store and play with that until we sold it. The guy was a genius on it and he taught me a lot, he had no problems at all. I use to try and catch a buzz before he got there so I could enjoy the show (he would always come in at the same time, different days but always the same time).

The second was at MARs music, where I actually worked in part in the keyboard department. Another completely sightless man came in looking for a digital piano, I picked up on the fact right away that this was a learning moment for me. (he had someone with him, couldn't walk to this store or take public transportation) First he asked if we had a real pedal for sustain and not one of those footswitches, I grabbed one for him. Next we walked around the pianos, he asked me not to tell him what they were, he tried the action of the keys by playing just a few seconds then he went right to the highest key and played it a few times, tried them all then he got to the Yamaha P-80.

When he played that highest key he said "it plinks, can I get a bench please?" He then proceeded to play beautifully, the P-80 had other instruments on it and he had no issues navigating through (nor would I expect him to tbh). It was great, he bought a P-80, a sustain pedal and a bench. It truly was a learning experience for me because I used that plink to sell quite a few more, as he explained and at the time he was right, most digital pianos sounded electronic so the highest note sounded too good to be real

I'm sure once I have had the Matriarch for a few months, I would be able to close my eyes and play the instrument, including tweaking the sound. The interface is big, with big controls and enough space between them that my hands find them without needing to look.

On the other hand, with a software synth, the eyes are essential because it is virtual and visual based.

[Hink]

no doubt

[Hink]

I grew up in Mass., as we called it back then! Thanks for the reminiscence, brought back my own fond memories.

I grew up in Bedford