Is the Market Finally Saturated?

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
Kalamata Kid
KVRAF
3827 posts since 27 Jul, 2001 from Tarpon Springs, Florida, USA

Post Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:59 am

When I purchase music software I buy it when it is on sale.
The more I spend the more I save. :lol:

Three months to Black Friday! :love: :party:
23" 10-touch Monitor and iPad Air as Midi Controllers, iConnectMIDI2+, Windows Pro 10-64bit, i9-9900k, 32 GB RAM.

recursive one
KVRAF
4042 posts since 7 Feb, 2013

Re: Is the Market Finally Saturated?

Post Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:00 am

anomandaris1 wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:48 am
there are plenty of hybrid wavetables + filters + samples synths (that offer some basic FM modulation) these days and they haven't created any new genres or signature sounds in the mainstream
Becuase they were/are, as you say "clones" (feature-wise, not sound-wise... unfortunately) and Virus was the original. And it had some kind of very pleasing tone which most of the "clones" didn't

Actually I'm not talking about making yet another Virus clone (though I wouldn't mind that ... if someone nails the sound), rather about the concept: select few components (oscillaotr modes, filters/effects etc) and make sure they work well/sound good together which I think takes some clever preprogrammed interaction between the components - more than just switchable modules and free routing/modulation.

E.g. these psytrance/hi-tech FM leads. In Virus it takes twisting few knobs and it already sounds great. In Serum you have to go though billion wavetables and/or do some partials editing before you get something that works, and after that you have to tweak the warp knob very carefully because it still tends to sound noisier than needed.

I believe Serum's FM must be more mathematically accurate. But it just doesn't sound that good by default.
You may think you can fly ... but you better not try

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Karma_tba
KVRian
1043 posts since 12 Aug, 2004

Re: Is the Market Finally Saturated?

Post Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:31 am

wagtunes wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:44 am
Karma_tba wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:37 am
wagtunes wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:23 am
2017 - $8,701 spent
2018 - $6,757 spent

This year? $2,062 spent and $1300 of that was on Warp IV brass and woodwinds, which is proving to be worth every penny.

In short, there's just nothing coming out that excites me anymore. At least nothing that I can't replicate with the synths I already own. I will be picking up MODO Drums because that is truly unique. But other than that, I don't see anything coming out that will get me excited enough to open up my wallet.

Everything is pretty much "been there, done that."
Seeing those numbers made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. I live on a fixed income (retired/Social Security) you spent the equivalent of 50% of my total yearly income in 2017. Life must be grand.

Actually, my life is wonderful. I have everything I could possibly want. My wife, my daughter, my church, my music, an album that's finally going to be professionally recorded by a band in 2020, a nice inheritance, great friends, and the best health I've been in in years.

The only thing I don't have is peace at this forum from people who insist on stalking me and commenting on everything I post with nothing but contempt and hostility.

But I guess we all have to have something in our lives we'd prefer not to have.
The thread is about a saturated market not about how much you spent. Somehow you have a knack for always making it about you.

chk071
KVRAF
21181 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Re: Is the Market Finally Saturated?

Post Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:32 am

wagtunes wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:23 am
2017 - $8,701 spent
2018 - $6,757 spent

This year? $2,062 spent and $1300 of that was on Warp IV brass and woodwinds, which is proving to be worth every penny.

In short, there's just nothing coming out that excites me anymore. At least nothing that I can't replicate with the synths I already own. I will be picking up MODO Drums because that is truly unique. But other than that, I don't see anything coming out that will get me excited enough to open up my wallet.

Everything is pretty much "been there, done that."
No wonder when you own 100 soft synths. :P

Not meant disrespectfully. It wouldn't excite me anymore either, with that kind of abundance. I already feel that with the few soft synths i have... hard to find anything which excites me enough over what i already own, to rationalize shelling out 100 or more €.

anomandaris1
KVRist
303 posts since 26 Nov, 2009

Re: Is the Market Finally Saturated?

Post Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:47 am

recursive one wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:00 am
Becuase they were/are, as you say "clones" (feature-wise, not sound-wise... unfortunately) and Virus was the original. And it had some kind of very pleasing tone which most of the "clones" didn't

Actually I'm not talking about making yet another Virus clone (though I wouldn't mind that ... if someone nails the sound), rather about the concept: select few components (oscillaotr modes, filters/effects etc) and make sure they work well/sound good together which I think takes some clever preprogrammed interaction between the components - more than just switchable modules and free routing/modulation.
Hah, but there are many such synths... that sound as good or better - subjectively, of course - (U-he analogue stuff, Massive X, Dune 3, Diversion/Thorn etc - there are many more in this vein) than Virus or have more features, while still being good synths (Kontakt 6, Avenger, Halion, Falcon and who knows what else).
Still, none of these can do something unique (check Razor, Skanner, Form, Prism - the implementation of synthesis in these synths can create new sounds and they pioneered (or popularised - I don't know the history of vst format or all unique, but obscure synths) them as commercial vsts).
Not being able to replicate your Virus sound is something unrelated. They have probably limited the range of modulation in Virus. FM will sound noisy when you use too much even if you oversample like crazy - you are basically creating some kind of noise timbre at some point with all these sidebands and harmonics.

User avatar
wagtunes
KVRAF
16694 posts since 8 Oct, 2014

Re: Is the Market Finally Saturated?

Post Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:48 am

Karma_tba wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:31 am
wagtunes wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:44 am
Karma_tba wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:37 am
wagtunes wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 5:23 am
2017 - $8,701 spent
2018 - $6,757 spent

This year? $2,062 spent and $1300 of that was on Warp IV brass and woodwinds, which is proving to be worth every penny.

In short, there's just nothing coming out that excites me anymore. At least nothing that I can't replicate with the synths I already own. I will be picking up MODO Drums because that is truly unique. But other than that, I don't see anything coming out that will get me excited enough to open up my wallet.

Everything is pretty much "been there, done that."
Seeing those numbers made the hairs on the back of my neck stand up. I live on a fixed income (retired/Social Security) you spent the equivalent of 50% of my total yearly income in 2017. Life must be grand.

Actually, my life is wonderful. I have everything I could possibly want. My wife, my daughter, my church, my music, an album that's finally going to be professionally recorded by a band in 2020, a nice inheritance, great friends, and the best health I've been in in years.

The only thing I don't have is peace at this forum from people who insist on stalking me and commenting on everything I post with nothing but contempt and hostility.

But I guess we all have to have something in our lives we'd prefer not to have.
The thread is about a saturated market not about how much you spent. Somehow you have a knack for always making it about you.
No, the point was that there's nothing to spend money on anymore, thus the comparison of the years. You're the one who wants to make it about me. And I can play this game with you all day if you want.

recursive one
KVRAF
4042 posts since 7 Feb, 2013

Re: Is the Market Finally Saturated?

Post Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:17 am

anomandaris1 wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:47 am
Not being able to replicate your Virus sound is something unrelated. They have probably limited the range of modulation in Virus. FM will sound noisy when you use too much even if you oversample like crazy - you are basically creating some kind of noise timbre at some point with all these sidebands and harmonics.
It is actually related. Instead of doing a mathematically correct FM implementation they made something that sounds good.

There are some pecularities in that posTri algorithm which make it a bit difficult to emulate by ususal cross-osc modulation, the thing is that the modulator is non-symmetrical so in some cases an LFO will do better job. Actually I can do something sounding similar to posTri in Serum, Dune 3 and Massive X - the question is that it requires some effort and some understanding of what I want to acheive, while in Virus I found this sound just by accident - i twisted that FM knob and was like "wow, this is how they do that, it's that simple :) ".

I think synths like Zebra, Avenger and similar "super-synths" may have lots of potentially great sounds hidden somewhere, some unique combiantions of parameters which have not been discovered yet and probably never will. With the current state of softsynths I think the question is to restrict the avaialbe options to those that sound good, rather than add new ones. So that regular lazy blokes like me could find more awesome sounds by happy accidents :)
You may think you can fly ... but you better not try

Calandria
KVRist
66 posts since 13 Dec, 2018

Re: Is the Market Finally Saturated?

Post Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:27 am

To me the market has become saturated and I would much rather see new innovative Synths now that I've had my fill.
The trouble is new producers start off on ground zero so any new synth will be of interest.
So there's a huge market to constantly tap as the cycle continues. Most of the low hanging fruit has been picked.

The last Synths I found interesting were Arcsyn and perhaps Thorn which dared to stray off the well beaten VA path.

anomandaris1
KVRist
303 posts since 26 Nov, 2009

Re: Is the Market Finally Saturated?

Post Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:32 am

recursive one wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:17 am


With the current state of softsynths I think the question is to restrict the avaialbe options to those that sound good, rather than add new ones. So that regular lazy blokes like me could find more awesome sounds by happy accidents :)
Dude, if people wanted, they could have invented psytrance or dnb/dubstep noises in 80s on yamaha synths.
The truth is that these sounds are unmusical and work only with a solid sound effects chains in a composition that make them less abrasive and being able to fuse with other instruments. They can even sound comical without proper distortion, EQ and echo.
The difference between modern pro and amateurish EDM song is in the mixing.
I don't think that there is a universal recipe for one knob good sound design.
If Virus is limiting parameter ranges, there are sounds that are technically not possible on this synth. Whether on not harsh noises have any use in music outside of movie sound effects is another topic.

recursive one
KVRAF
4042 posts since 7 Feb, 2013

Re: Is the Market Finally Saturated?

Post Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:34 am

anomandaris1 wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:32 am
Dude ...
You don't seem to understand what I'm trying to say but nevermind
You may think you can fly ... but you better not try

User avatar
Forgotten
KVRAF
2141 posts since 15 Apr, 2019 from Nowhere

Re: Is the Market Finally Saturated?

Post Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:38 am

tony10000 wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:57 pm
It seems like everything is on sale more often than not. Sounds like demand for virtual instruments and effects is at an all time low.
That's not a criterion for a saturated market though, and low demand can be caused by things other than a saturated market.

One of the core rules of statistical analysis: "Correlation does not imply causation"

User avatar
zerocrossing
KVRAF
9780 posts since 26 Jun, 2006 from San Francisco Bay Area

Re: Is the Market Finally Saturated?

Post Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:49 am

DJ Warmonger wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:04 pm
I guess there is some saturation point - there's no need for any new synths if the old ones are doing their job well. Probably the market itself isn't growing anymore, the population of music producers is stable and limited as well.
I don’t think so. People who like electronic instruments are a bit more inclined to be explorers than in other types of music. Maybe there will come a time when classic emulations have been successfully done to death (not there yet) but when it comes to instruments that provide unique solutions and features, we’re a long way from having a “saturated” market. In fact, software synths that do good “saturated” sounds are few and far between.
Zerocrossing Media

4th Law of Robotics: When turning evil, display a red indicator light. ~[ ●_● ]~

User avatar
vurt
addled muppet weed
48596 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass

Re: Is the Market Finally Saturated?

Post Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:51 am

Calandria wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:27 am
To me the market has become saturated and I would much rather see new innovative Synths now that I've had my fill.
The trouble is new producers start off on ground zero so any new synth will be of interest.
So there's a huge market to constantly tap as the cycle continues. Most of the low hanging fruit has been picked.
that's a good point really, those of us who have been around a while will not see many new synths that interest us, but to a new beginner, theyre that kid in the toy store we once where :D
lucky buggers :hihi:

SHall1000
KVRist
280 posts since 13 May, 2015

Re: Is the Market Finally Saturated?

Post Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:57 am

Its not the sales that make me think the market is saturated. Constant sales are a feature across all retail now. Its the lowering of prices generally and the give aways e.g Iris 2

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pdxindy
KVRAF
15951 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Re: Is the Market Finally Saturated?

Post Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:06 am

DJ Warmonger wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:26 am
ramseysounds wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:20 am
DJ Warmonger wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:46 am
Recent success of... Massive-X...
Has it been a success? The hype seems to have died down. I read as many negative as positive reviews on here :shrug:
Many people are using it, and event want me to start doing so (which I didn't yet). Like it or not, but as a part of Komplete it instantly became a major player in VST ecosystem.
It has nothing to do with liking or not.. Being a part of Komplete just means lots of people immediately have it... not that they use it or even like it. The talk about Massive X has died down rather fast. No doubt it will grow over time, but my impression is it is not an immediate hit. Also, as is, it will not lend itself to selling preset packs cause there is no way to organize them. They all just go in one directory with no sorting or filtering at all.

Massive X should be part of the new plugin set... called InKomplete :hihi:

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