Should I use linear phase eqs when mixing kick and bass?

[recursive one]

When I need to eq my kicks or basses I typically use a linear phase equalizer (because kick and bass phase relations are super important in psytrance - I guess in other genres too). But a liner phase eq can shift the timing of the events (as far as I udnerstand, this is called pre-ringing), whcih kills another very important aspect of the groove - the timing. Even if the kick or the bass sounds few ms later than it should it may already damage the groove.

How do you deal with that? As for now I bounce everything and manually align kick and bass initial transients to the grid which is qute awkward, I have to go through this again whenever I need to change the eq curve. Maybe there is some smarter way to handle this? Or maybe I shouldn't be using a linear phase eq at all on individual channels?

EDIT: the timing issues turned out to be not related to pre-ringing, but pre-ringing may still be a problem since it affects the transients.

[Winstontaneous]

Can you not get acceptable results with minimum-phase EQ? Have you considered just using source/bass kick sounds with complimentary spectra that don't require much/any EQ?

If you're so concerned about predictable phase for transients are you using samples, or synths with osc phase reset rather than free-running oscillators? My guess is that people weren't worrying about any of this when trance was invented.

[recursive one]

I think when trance was invented precise timing was not pshycially possible with analog synths and sequencers. But today perfect timing and perfect phase alignment between the kick and the bass is the must, at least in psytrance.

I use kick oneshots (premade, taken from sample packs aimed at modern psytrance) and bass oneshots (self-made, the synth is bounced per note with the whole processing chain ). I can assemble a groove with perfect timing/phase of that, but when working on the rest of the mix I can decide that the kick and/or bass needs additional equalization to cut through better or to make room for the synths. I use lin phase in order not to ruin the kick/bass phase alignment but then I have to worry about the timing.

These timing issues are very slight if present, basically at the edge of perception which makes it really hard to detect and fix - but this may be yet another complicating factor in making the perfect groove

Anyways, since all psytrance made today has basically the same kick/bass groove i thought it was a common issue and there might be some kind of routine to deal with that

[heavymetalmixer]

I remember certain artile from the Izotope site saying that it's better to start the mastering process by using the limiter, even though it is at the end of the chain.

So, what about using minimum phase EQ and then you try fixing the phase issues by flipping the phase on some tracks, or using a phase rotator plugin? Off course, only if you notice phase issues (you can use a meter for this, like Voxengo SPAN or MSED). Btw, the only good free phase rotator plugin I know is the JS Phase Rotator included in Reaper, other similar free plugins don't really make their job properly.

Also, you could try gruping those instruments and EQing the group instead of the individual tracks. This way, you won't get any phase issues between those tracks AT ALL.

[recursive one]

Thanks, yes grouping the tracks and equing the bus seems the most logical solution

Actually when I investigated this a bit more (bounced some tracks with and without the processing within the project and compared the timing) the linear phase eq I was using didn't seem to cause latensy or timing issues. Maybe I'm not pushing it hard enough . The worst offender turned out to be Saturn in multiband mode, so it appears that whenever I use Saturn on the bass I have to bounce it and manually adjust the timing.

[legendCNCD]

Thanks, yes grouping the tracks and equing the bus seems the most logical solution

Actually when I investigated this a bit more (bounced some tracks with and without the processing within the project and compared the timing) the linear phase eq I was using didn't seem to cause latensy or timing issues. Maybe I'm not pushing it hard enough . The worst offender turned out to be Saturn in multiband mode, so it appears that whenever I use Saturn on the bass I have to bounce it and manually adjust the timing.

Was it as bad or even more bad when using HQ mode? (I think its 8x OverSample)

[recursive one]

I'll check.

Actually I often use Saturn not in high quality mode because in such case it may add some coloration which fits the psy bass. Kind of like old quadrafuzz which was very important for psytrance bass sound. Seems like a weird thing to do to deliberately use a plugin in a lower quality mode but it sorta works.

[Ploki]

Preringing in my opinion is worse than phase incoherence, and aside fundamental, I question phase coherence of harmonics to begin with.

I don't think oversampling will help, it's not in the high end spectrum and cut happens at the bottom

if you insist on going linear phase, use Voxengo PHA979 (it includes corellometer - multiband phase corellation meter, which is also available as a freebie) to match the phases back.

Voxengo Pha 979 uses all pass filters (it also has delay lines) so it's more than just a simple timing shifter.

In any case, properly coded Linear phase EQs COMPENSATE for preringing - they do not change the position of the transient, there's just a low-amplitude swell before it, and it sounds like the transient is smeared.

Also for Saturn, it generally shouldn't affect timing.

And timing is NOT phase correlation, but they're correlated (lol)

[recursive one]

It seems that Saturn may add latency, at least if you use few bands. E.g. the guy talks about this in this video at 17:55
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcMoh1T7_Ak
And I observe exactly the same thing in another DAW (he uses Live and my DAW is Studio One)

I'm not sure if this is pre-ringing or something else but this is not just few ms of silence inserted before the transient but some very quiet audio signal (when he zooms in at 18:05 it may be seen).

[cturner]

Seems a fair bit of confusion here, f'rinstance: latency has nothing to do with the OP's question.

Here's the response curve of Saturn as flat as I can make it: one band, "clean tube", dynamics & drive at 0. I reduced the amplitude of the impulse response of Plugin Doctor to minimize the saturation--which isn't too cool--but it will work here.



Here's the phase response for the above frequency curve:



You'll notice the signal is about 90 degrees out-of-phase at ~40Hz, so any parallel use of Saturn is going to have a significant effect on the composite waveform. If you start to drive Saturn, or perhaps more importantly space your bands close together, phase shift is going to get a lot worse.

EDIT: I'd estimate Saturn's crossover filters to be 24dB/oct, and not linear phase.

HTH

[Ploki]

it's a waveshaper anyway, multiband at that.

I just never observed it adding any unreported latency.

[recursive one]

If you start to drive Saturn, or perhaps more importantly space your bands close together, phase shift is going to get a lot worse

Frankly, this is the area where I'm not really knowledgeable yet. But for what I know, in case of the psytrance bass the phase shift introduced by multiband processing is an important part of the sound.

I usually don't drive Saturn much if at all. What I do is making 3-4 bands and moving the bands until I like the sound - basically as explained in the above tutorial.

Actually the whole issue started when the mastering engineer reported me that one of my tracks had slight issues with kick/bass timing (slight enough to slip through my own ears but he catched that). I thought about lin phase eq first but it turned out to be caused by Saturn in my case.

[cturner]

For what I know, in case of the psytrance bass the phase shift introduced by multiband processing is an important part of the sound.

This may indeed be the case; I'm hardly an authority on producing that genre of music.

My comment first and foremost pertains to layered instruments, or parallel treatment of a sound source. In those cases, you'd be mixing a frequency with a version of itself 90 degrees phase shifted; certainly losing some impact there.

Also of concern would be kick/bass combinations, where a kick might have a 40Hz fundamental, but tuned to the song key. So maybe you have the second or third harmonic of the kick 90 degrees off from a bass note or its low harmonics.

Keep in mind that the above might be the best you could expect of Saturn; that the addition of bands or heavier saturation models could easily shift things 180 degrees out of phase.

So it could be that phase distortion is a psytrance signature, and perhaps plugs like Creative Intent's Tantrum might ideal for that style. In the end, if it sounds good, it is good. But my approach, and I think a lot of folks irrespective of style, is to keep the low end information as clean as possible to retain impact, and watching what phase is doing to the signals down there is part of the process.

HTH

[cturner]

Actually the whole issue started when the mastering engineer reported me that one of my tracks had slight issues with kick/bass timing (slight enough to slip through my own ears but he catched that). I thought about lin phase eq first but it turned out to be caused by Saturn in my case.

Well, "timing" isn't the same as "phase cancellation". But linear EQ wouldn't likely be the cause of either of these issues. First, most plugin hosts have latency compensation, so the delay of the EQ should be compensated for. Linear EQ doesn't cause phase shift, as that's precisely the reason we utilize it: no phase shift. Its "undesirable artifact" is "pre-ringing" (and "post-ringing": IIR filters have post-ringing only). The pre-ring of a linear EQ is mostly heard as smearing of transients, and is much worse in the low end than up above 1-2Khz. Larger FIR kernels will ameliorate this, but they introduce latency, which per above, should be compensated for by your plugin host.

HTH

[recursive one]

Well, "timing" isn't the same as "phase cancellation".

Yes, I understand that. But since the kicks I use are essentially swept down sines and the basses are saws (with some additional harmonics intorduced by saturation), i think at the point where the bass overlaps with kick tail the precise timing may be repsonsible for presence/absence of phase cancellation.

At least I think so I really need to educate myself more about how different processing affects phase and what happens when different signals overlap.

Yes, the original question related specifcally to timing (why my bass doesn't play 100% in time and what can I do to avoid that which seems to be sorted now) but the phase talk here was very useful for me too, thanks