Poll: How about an alliance against Apple strategies? (Catalina, OpenGL...)

DSP, Plug-in and Host development discussion.

Are you in?

Hell yeah!
66
50%
Let's try and revisit in a few months!
22
17%
I'm scared! Users would crucify us! :)
6
5%
No, I'm fine with what Apple does!
37
28%
 
Total votes: 131

User avatar
planetearth
KVRAF
1603 posts since 10 Jul, 2006 from Tampa

Post Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:15 pm

I don't know if this was addressed in the previous 8 pages of this thread (and after the tone of the first few pages, I stopped reading them), but do audio plug-in developers have enough say in what Apple does?

I'm not trolling here; I ask this as an honest question. I don't know how much of Apple's overall user base uses audio plug-ins (or DAWs, for that matter), so I obviously don't know how likely Apple would be to respond to such a "strike", even if almost all the plug-in and DAW developers were on-board. (This is assuming your intentions are to stop developing for Apple until they stop breaking things with each update. If that's not your intention, I apologize for misunderstanding.)

I could see Apple responding if Avid's Pro Tools users were up in arms over all of these things, but even Avid (and Pro Tools) don't command the same amount of "clout" as they did a decade (or more) ago. I'm sure Apple doesn't (usually) implement their OS "improvements" and changes lightly, and they probably figure such changes will benefit most of their user base. Audio plug-in and DAW users simply do not constitute most of Apple's user base. Microsoft's either, for that matter.

While I'd like to see audio plug-in (and DAW) developers have much more say in Apple OS and WIndows audio development, I'm just not sure they command enough of a voice to be heard by Apple--but I welcome @MeldaProduction or @u-He's (or any plug-in dev's) perspective on this.

Steve
Listen to some of my stuff here: https://soundcloud.com/shadowsoflife.

User avatar
stratology
KVRist
152 posts since 31 May, 2004 from Ireland

Re: Poll: How about an alliance against Apple strategies? (Catalina, OpenGL...)

Post Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:21 pm

JCJR wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:44 pm
..
Life is too short and its not worth the additional burnout risk to keep doing something that drives you nuts.
..

Really good post.

Especially considering the drama and upset, just because an OS update has a few more hurdles to manage than usual. Which is really a minor issue, compared to the OS 9 - OS X transition, or the PPC to Intel transition.

Drama, 'Apple has lost it', 'Apple is doomed', etc. is one of the few things that has remained constant over the last decades. I started on (classic) Mac OS 8, I cannot remember a time when there were not constant complaints and 'Apple has really lost it this time' outcries about the issue of the day.

User avatar
stratology
KVRist
152 posts since 31 May, 2004 from Ireland

Re: Poll: How about an alliance against Apple strategies? (Catalina, OpenGL...)

Post Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:28 pm

planetearth wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:15 pm
Audio plug-in and DAW users simply do not constitute most of Apple's user base.
You do realise that Apple produces 2 DAWs, Garageband and Logic Pro X, as well as MainStage for live music, and a bunch of Audio Unit plugins that come with the system?

Have a look at the features that are added in each (free) Logic update - these updates are released frequently - to get an idea of how active Apple is in the DAW market.
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT203718

User avatar
JunSev
KVRian
729 posts since 14 Sep, 2017

Re: Poll: How about an alliance against Apple strategies? (Catalina, OpenGL...)

Post Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:31 pm

telecode wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 4:32 pm
JunSev wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:54 am
vurt wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:49 am
MeldaProduction wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:43 am
Yup, this happens when regular users enter developer forum :D
this is not the "developers forum"
Is not the "off topic" forum or the "Legos" forum neither... just saying.

With all respect.
It doesn't matter. If you want a "private" sub-forum where only certain members can read and post, I am pretty sure whoever runs KVR can set one up in 2 secs.
No one is asking for a private forum, the name of this forum is "DSP and Plug-in Development", I recognize that there might be a misconception and anyone could think that is a forum were (mostly) developers share ideas and thoughts, is not that and mr. Mitz already clarified, we respected that.

I responded to vurt for other reasons but that is in the past, hope you don't cherry pick things.

Is a good thing when important facts comes to light.

User avatar
JunSev
KVRian
729 posts since 14 Sep, 2017

Re: Poll: How about an alliance against Apple strategies? (Catalina, OpenGL...)

Post Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:40 pm

stratology wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:28 pm
planetearth wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:15 pm
Audio plug-in and DAW users simply do not constitute most of Apple's user base.
You do realise that Apple produces 2 DAWs, Garageband and Logic Pro X, as well as MainStage for live music, and a bunch of Audio Unit plugins that come with the system?

Have a look at the features that are added in each (free) Logic update - these updates are released frequently - to get an idea of how active Apple is in the DAW market.
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT203718
Does that even matter if they go around getting rid of compatibility functions Constantly?

If they do this so often I guess there are good reasons to be concerned about apple moves, all of that brings fast obsolescence to the plug-ins we buy and this is simply not ok, they crossed the line and they don't respect compatibility, there is not consideration to many independent developers or common users.

JCJR
KVRAF
2859 posts since 17 Apr, 2005 from S.E. TN

Re: Poll: How about an alliance against Apple strategies? (Catalina, OpenGL...)

Post Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:45 pm

stratology wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:21 pm
JCJR wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:44 pm
..
Life is too short and its not worth the additional burnout risk to keep doing something that drives you nuts.
..

Really good post.

Especially considering the drama and upset, just because an OS update has a few more hurdles to manage than usual. Which is really a minor issue, compared to the OS 9 - OS X transition, or the PPC to Intel transition.

Drama, 'Apple has lost it', 'Apple is doomed', etc. is one of the few things that has remained constant over the last decades. I started on (classic) Mac OS 8, I cannot remember a time when there were not constant complaints and 'Apple has really lost it this time' outcries about the issue of the day.
Thanks stratology. Though from my limited self-involved viewpoint I tend to read such comments in the ballpark of, "Dude if they got no bread then why don't they eat cake?" :) But hey thats ok its all relative and nothing much matters in the long run.

From my limited self-involved viewpoint, each and every instance of inconsequential drama you mention were entirely valid reasons for serious public bitching and moaning, if not full-throttle torches-and-pitchforks developer revolt. To me those were not trivial instances of transient bitching of a few ignorant peasants too stupid to understand the Vast Wisdom of Master's New Plan. :) Just depends on how one's evaluation method is constructed. According to special relativity no frame of reference is "naturally privileged" though I naturally enough tend to see it from my frame of reference cause thats where I live.

User avatar
planetearth
KVRAF
1603 posts since 10 Jul, 2006 from Tampa

Re: Poll: How about an alliance against Apple strategies? (Catalina, OpenGL...)

Post Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:55 pm

JunSev wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:40 pm
stratology wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:28 pm
planetearth wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:15 pm
Audio plug-in and DAW users simply do not constitute most of Apple's user base.
You do realise that Apple produces 2 DAWs, Garageband and Logic Pro X, as well as MainStage for live music, and a bunch of Audio Unit plugins that come with the system?

Have a look at the features that are added in each (free) Logic update - these updates are released frequently - to get an idea of how active Apple is in the DAW market.
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT203718
Does that even matter if they go around getting rid of compatibility functions Constantly?

If they do this so often I guess there are good reasons to be concerned about apple moves, all of that brings fast obsolescence to the plug-ins we buy and this is simply not ok, they crossed the line and they don't respect compatibility, there is not consideration to many independent developers or common users.
Thanks, @JunSev.

Yes, @stratology, I'm aware of Apple's DAW and plug-ins. That still doesn't answer how much clout the rest of the DAW and plug-in market has. So unless Apple is trying to screw over the other developers by breaking things (which I seriously doubt), or unless the few things Apple offers account for the vast majority of DAWs and plug-ins (which they don't), then it doesn't matter. And how many features Apple adds in Logic updates is also irrelevant, since other devs add free features to their updates, too.

I'm not anti-Apple, so if that's where you were going with this, save yourself the trip.

Steve
Listen to some of my stuff here: https://soundcloud.com/shadowsoflife.

User avatar
stratology
KVRist
152 posts since 31 May, 2004 from Ireland

Re: Poll: How about an alliance against Apple strategies? (Catalina, OpenGL...)

Post Sun Oct 20, 2019 6:14 pm

JunSev wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:40 pm
Does that even matter if they go around getting rid of compatibility functions Constantly?

If they do this so often I guess there are good reasons to be concerned about apple moves, all of that brings fast obsolescence to the plug-ins we buy and this is simply not ok, they crossed the line and they don't respect compatibility, there is not consideration to many independent developers or common users.
I honestly don't know what you are talking about. What are compatibility functions?

I don't think a single one of my plugins will stop working under Catalina. And I do have some pretty old ones (by guys like Waves, who have not abandoned older plugins). Are you referring to the 32bit to 64bit transition? This started in 2003 - a reasonable amount of time to catch up, IMHO.

User avatar
stratology
KVRist
152 posts since 31 May, 2004 from Ireland

Re: Poll: How about an alliance against Apple strategies? (Catalina, OpenGL...)

Post Sun Oct 20, 2019 6:26 pm

planetearth wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:55 pm
That still doesn't answer how much clout the rest of the DAW and plug-in market has.
I disagree. Logic is among the most widely used DAWs - AFAIK, more users than Protools. Apple has to make sure that 3rd party plugins keep working seamlessly, to keep its own user base happy.

There is no 'clout' needed from Avid or Presonus, because the goals regarding plugin compatibility are aligned between Logic, Protools, Studio One, etc.

Imagine how embarrassing it would be for Apple if Logic stopped working correctly on the day of an OS update. They always make sure not only that this does not happen, but that their pro apps take advantage of all the changes and performance improvements that come with new OS releases.


The current release of Digital Performer is already fully compatible with Catalina. I would be surprised if other DAWs were far behind.

User avatar
JunSev
KVRian
729 posts since 14 Sep, 2017

Re: Poll: How about an alliance against Apple strategies? (Catalina, OpenGL...)

Post Sun Oct 20, 2019 6:38 pm

stratology wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 6:14 pm
JunSev wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:40 pm
Does that even matter if they go around getting rid of compatibility functions Constantly?

If they do this so often I guess there are good reasons to be concerned about apple moves, all of that brings fast obsolescence to the plug-ins we buy and this is simply not ok, they crossed the line and they don't respect compatibility, there is not consideration to many independent developers or common users.
I honestly don't know what you are talking about. What are compatibility functions?

I don't think a single one of my plugins will stop working under Catalina. And I do have some pretty old ones (by guys like Waves, who have not abandoned older plugins). Are you referring to the 32bit to 64bit transition? This started in 2003 - a reasonable amount of time to catch up, IMHO.
Is not only about the 32bit plug-ins, there is clearly more about it, already better explained by Markus and Melda.

JCJR
KVRAF
2859 posts since 17 Apr, 2005 from S.E. TN

Re: Poll: How about an alliance against Apple strategies? (Catalina, OpenGL...)

Post Sun Oct 20, 2019 7:49 pm

stratology wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:21 pm
JCJR wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:44 pm
..
Life is too short and its not worth the additional burnout risk to keep doing something that drives you nuts.
..

Really good post.

Especially considering the drama and upset, just because an OS update has a few more hurdles to manage than usual. Which is really a minor issue, compared to the OS 9 - OS X transition, or the PPC to Intel transition.

Drama, 'Apple has lost it', 'Apple is doomed', etc. is one of the few things that has remained constant over the last decades. I started on (classic) Mac OS 8, I cannot remember a time when there were not constant complaints and 'Apple has really lost it this time' outcries about the issue of the day.
Ferinstance just to illustrate how small-minded and vindictive I can be about ancient crap-- Apple deprecated Carbon. OK, if Carbon sucked so bad that it had to be deprecated, then why the holy fcuh did they make me spend months of the worst kind of monkey work carbonizizing several hundred thousand lines of source code?

If it sucked bad enough to eventually deprecate, why did they force it down our throats in in the first place? The source code worked just fine before Carbon!

Zaphod (giancarlo)
KVRAF
2495 posts since 23 Jun, 2006

Re: Poll: How about an alliance against Apple strategies? (Catalina, OpenGL...)

Post Sun Oct 20, 2019 8:50 pm

JCJR wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 7:49 pm
stratology wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:21 pm
JCJR wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:44 pm
..
Life is too short and its not worth the additional burnout risk to keep doing something that drives you nuts.
..

Really good post.

Especially considering the drama and upset, just because an OS update has a few more hurdles to manage than usual. Which is really a minor issue, compared to the OS 9 - OS X transition, or the PPC to Intel transition.

Drama, 'Apple has lost it', 'Apple is doomed', etc. is one of the few things that has remained constant over the last decades. I started on (classic) Mac OS 8, I cannot remember a time when there were not constant complaints and 'Apple has really lost it this time' outcries about the issue of the day.
Ferinstance just to illustrate how small-minded and vindictive I can be about ancient crap-- Apple deprecated Carbon. OK, if Carbon sucked so bad that it had to be deprecated, then why the holy fcuh did they make me spend months of the worst kind of monkey work carbonizizing several hundred thousand lines of source code?

If it sucked bad enough to eventually deprecate, why did they force it down our throats in in the first place? The source code worked just fine before Carbon!
Looooooooool

Haptix
KVRist
54 posts since 18 Oct, 2019

Re: Poll: How about an alliance against Apple strategies? (Catalina, OpenGL...)

Post Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:56 pm

stratology wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:28 pm
planetearth wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:15 pm
Audio plug-in and DAW users simply do not constitute most of Apple's user base.
You do realise that Apple produces 2 DAWs, Garageband and Logic Pro X, as well as MainStage for live music, and a bunch of Audio Unit plugins that come with the system?

Have a look at the features that are added in each (free) Logic update - these updates are released frequently - to get an idea of how active Apple is in the DAW market.
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT203718
Reading that I see that there has been whole lot of issues with Logic constantly. As well. Nice tho that they bring new features too :)
{"panic_string":"BAD MAGIC! :shrug: (flag set in iBoot panic header), no macOS panic log available"} "Apple did not respond to a request for comment."

User avatar
MeldaProduction
KVRAF
11696 posts since 15 Mar, 2008 from Czech republic

Re: Poll: How about an alliance against Apple strategies? (Catalina, OpenGL...)

Post Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:34 am

JCJR wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 7:49 pm
Ferinstance just to illustrate how small-minded and vindictive I can be about ancient crap-- Apple deprecated Carbon. OK, if Carbon sucked so bad that it had to be deprecated, then why the holy fcuh did they make me spend months of the worst kind of monkey work carbonizizing several hundred thousand lines of source code?

If it sucked bad enough to eventually deprecate, why did they force it down our throats in in the first place? The source code worked just fine before Carbon!
Exactly! A just a few years later we were forced to Cocoize :D everything, this time even with new totally idiotic language :D (which I think is replaced by swift now again :D). Somehow on Windows it wasn't necessary...
Vojtech - MeldaProduction
Image

User avatar
Urs
u-he
24050 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin

Re: Poll: How about an alliance against Apple strategies? (Catalina, OpenGL...)

Post Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:46 am

JunSev wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 6:38 pm
Is not only about the 32bit plug-ins, there is clearly more about it, already better explained by Markus and Melda.
Other people might think of these explanations as misconceptions. Such as the hardship of OpenGL going away in few years. Or the hardship of adding a three line shell script for code sign and notarisation. The motives are insinuated to be evil and speculations are made without further ado.

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