Poll: How about an alliance against Apple strategies? (Catalina, OpenGL...)

DSP, Plugin and Host development discussion.
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Are you in?

Hell yeah!
70
49%
Let's try and revisit in a few months!
26
18%
I'm scared! Users would crucify us! :)
7
5%
No, I'm fine with what Apple does!
40
28%
 
Total votes: 143

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MeldaProduction wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:34 am A just a few years later we were forced to Cocoize :D everything, this time even with new totally idiotic language :D (which I think is replaced by swift now again :D).
So the lesson is still not learned? Apple changed, changes, and will change things incompatibly. Why it is still a surprise? It is not that yesterday they announced a deprecation and today the code must be ported, there is always a long deprecation period before the final removal or other changes.

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Vokbuz wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:27 am So the lesson is still not learned? Apple changed, changes, and will change things incompatibly. Why it is still a surprise? It is not that yesterday they announced a deprecation and today the code must be ported, there is always a long deprecation period before the final removal or other changes.
Very true. And it's not only Apple. It's the nature of technology that it changes quickly. It's a hugely competitive market. And security issues become more challenging all the time, so companies - all companies, not just Apple - must find ways to respond and harden their wares, to make them more secure.

Of course changes are painful. The transition from OS 9 to Mac OS X meant that lots of apps had to be re-written from the ground up. But the advantages of OS X over OS 9 were significant, and we take them for granted today.

But accommodating, say, Adobe so they can continue marketing the OS 9 version of Photoshop unchanged, by not moving to OS X, would have put Apple at a significant technical and competitive disadvantage. (It also, in the end, made Photoshop more stable, because it didn't crash anymore when another app crashed, due to shared memory. The same way that today's read-only system volume and deprecation of kexts will increase stability.)

Compare the performance test results of the latest iPhones - with in-house CPUs - to any competitor with generic CPUs. While these changes may present challenges to devs, they present a definite advantage to end users.

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stratology wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:20 am Of course changes are painful. The transition from OS 9 to Mac OS X meant that lots of apps had to be re-written from the ground up. But the advantages of OS X over OS 9 were significant, and we take them for granted today.

But accommodating, say, Adobe so they can continue marketing the OS 9 version of Photoshop unchanged, by not moving to OS X, would have put Apple at a significant technical and competitive disadvantage.
Are you trying to rewrite history or something? They did exactly what you are saying would have been a "significant technical and competitive disadvantage" for them. Up to OS X 10.4, Macs were able to run Mac OS 9, and Mac OS 9 applications, from inside OS X. THAT was an exemplary way of doing a transition.

And apps didn't had to be rewritten from the ground up. There was an OS layer called "Rosetta" that allowed for many compatibilities.
stratology wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:20 am Compare the performance test results of the latest iPhones - with in-house CPUs - to any competitor with generic CPUs. While these changes may present challenges to devs, they present a definite advantage to end users.
Care to point to any site where are those comparisons (independent, please)? AFAIK, the latest iPhones don't show any significant performance gains against their top competitors.
Fernando (FMR)

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fmr wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:28 am And apps didn't had to be rewritten from the ground up. There was an OS layer called "Rosetta" that allowed for many compatibilities.
Of course they made the transition as easy as possible. There was not only Rosetta, but also the Classic environment, to make the transition easy for end users. Devs still had to adapt their apps to OS X, which took significant effort.

fmr wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:28 am Care to point to any site where are those comparisons (independent, please)? AFAIK, the latest iPhones don't show any significant performance gains against their top competitors.

Here you go:
iPhone 11 performance (Geekbench etc.)
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2019/09 ... hone/2/#h2

iPhone 11 Pro performance
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2019/09 ... ices/4/#h2

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stratology wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:37 am
fmr wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:28 am And apps didn't had to be rewritten from the ground up. There was an OS layer called "Rosetta" that allowed for many compatibilities.
Of course they made the transition as easy as possible. There was not only Rosetta, but also the Classic environment, to make the transition easy for end users. Devs still had to adapt their apps to OS X, which took significant effort.

fmr wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:28 am Care to point to any site where are those comparisons (independent, please)? AFAIK, the latest iPhones don't show any significant performance gains against their top competitors.

Here you go:
iPhone 11 performance (Geekbench etc.)
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2019/09 ... hone/2/#h2

iPhone 11 Pro performance
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2019/09 ... ices/4/#h2
Eh? Comparing an iPhone to another iPhone.. Well, Im sold :shrug:
{"panic_string":"BAD MAGIC! :shrug: (flag set in iBoot panic header), no macOS panic log available"} "Apple did not respond to a request for comment."

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Haptix wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:40 am
stratology wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:37 am
fmr wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:28 am And apps didn't had to be rewritten from the ground up. There was an OS layer called "Rosetta" that allowed for many compatibilities.
Of course they made the transition as easy as possible. There was not only Rosetta, but also the Classic environment, to make the transition easy for end users. Devs still had to adapt their apps to OS X, which took significant effort.

fmr wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:28 am Care to point to any site where are those comparisons (independent, please)? AFAIK, the latest iPhones don't show any significant performance gains against their top competitors.

Here you go:
iPhone 11 performance (Geekbench etc.)
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2019/09 ... hone/2/#h2

iPhone 11 Pro performance
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2019/09 ... ices/4/#h2
Eh? Comparing an iPhone to another iPhone.. Well, Im sold :shrug:
Its bit like the super hyoer xdr display from Apple, comparing it to a 20k - 40k display (I give you a hint, they dont exist)
{"panic_string":"BAD MAGIC! :shrug: (flag set in iBoot panic header), no macOS panic log available"} "Apple did not respond to a request for comment."

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Urs wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:46 am
JunSev wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:38 am Is not only about the 32bit plug-ins, there is clearly more about it, already better explained by Markus and Melda.
Other people might think of these explanations as misconceptions. Such as the hardship of OpenGL going away in few years. Or the hardship of adding a three line shell script for code sign and notarisation. The motives are insinuated to be evil and speculations are made without further ado.
It has been explained very well actually and of course is a big problem because of the compatibility of older projects and plug-ins, even the concerns are understandable due to the constant bad moves of apple getting rid of things.

I don't like the fast obsolescence of the products I'm buying or the fact that my plug-ins are unusable in so short time so the corporations create more products and I need to drop more Cash $€£ for the last trendings... that's not ok.

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Opps :borg:
Last edited by Touch The Universe on Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
High Quality Soundsets for Lush-101 | Hive | Electra 2 | Diversion | Halion | Largo | Rapid | Dune II | Thorn | and more.

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Touch The Universe wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:44 am Have to applaud as well. Rage against the machine man! Rage!!

Then comply :borg:
https://versus.com/en/apple-iphone-11-p ... y-s10-plus
{"panic_string":"BAD MAGIC! :shrug: (flag set in iBoot panic header), no macOS panic log available"} "Apple did not respond to a request for comment."

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Haptix wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:40 am
stratology wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:37 am Here you go:
iPhone 11 performance (Geekbench etc.)
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2019/09 ... hone/2/#h2

iPhone 11 Pro performance
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2019/09 ... ices/4/#h2
Eh? Comparing an iPhone to another iPhone.. Well, Im sold :shrug:
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Fernando (FMR)

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No_Use wrote: Sun Oct 20, 2019 2:29 pm @Vojtech
I'm not (really) a dev but I applaud your efforts, I think devs should raise a voice when they think enough is enough.
Hope it'll succeed. :tu:
Have to applaud as well. Rage against the machine man! Rage!!

Then comply :borg:
High Quality Soundsets for Lush-101 | Hive | Electra 2 | Diversion | Halion | Largo | Rapid | Dune II | Thorn | and more.

TTU Youtube

Post

Haptix wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:40 am Eh? Comparing an iPhone to another iPhone.. Well, Im sold :shrug:
There are these little buttons, where you can advance from one picture to the next, which displays more stats, comparing the iPhone to competitors.

My assumption was that this was easy enough to figure out. Apologies.

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stratology wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:48 am
Haptix wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:40 am Eh? Comparing an iPhone to another iPhone.. Well, Im sold :shrug:
There are these little buttons, where you can advance from one picture to the next, which displays more stats, comparing the iPhone to competitors.

My assumption was that this was easy enough to figure out. Apologies.
Yes, I noticed them. Do not worry. Still stand behind my remark :)

https://versus.com/en/apple-iphone-11-p ... y-s10-plus
Last edited by Haptix on Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
{"panic_string":"BAD MAGIC! :shrug: (flag set in iBoot panic header), no macOS panic log available"} "Apple did not respond to a request for comment."

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Haptix wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:45 am
Touch The Universe wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:44 am Have to applaud as well. Rage against the machine man! Rage!!

Then comply :borg:
https://versus.com/en/apple-iphone-11-p ... y-s10-plus
So much for the pretended Apple advantage on the CPUs. :hihi:

But I will refrain from adding more until I see them built into low end laptops (as I don believe they will EVER be in a desktop machine, or even a high end laptop).
Fernando (FMR)

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Urs wrote: Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:46 am Other people might think of these explanations as misconceptions. Such as the hardship of OpenGL going away in few years. Or the hardship of adding a three line shell script for code sign and notarisation. The motives are insinuated to be evil and speculations are made without further ado.
Hm, I have more the impression that these kind of religious mac users in here have no arguments and simply ignore the points which were made in here. Even worse, they start to be aggressive, insulting. Why is that? Because of the amount of good arguments?

Being an ex OSX fan, I am unsatisfied with this trend of Apple, the behaviour of not taking care of users and developers at all, doing decisions without foresight for us, only for them. It is the sum of all they do. The actual problem is that the today's common mac user has so low knowledge about the system he/she uses and therefore no capabilities for critics at all. Even worse, people commonly blindly trust these kind of companies, the image of the company. And if you don't know any details, you only can believe. And I think that is obviously the common behaviour of a normal mac user.

If they take OpenGL away, which could be for good reason considered as outdated, why they don't give a shit for crossplatform developers, which usually are all which produce more "professional" software? Where is the crossplatform wrapper by Apple? Or Metal for Windows? Apple completely changed also here, from open minded to very egocentric, narrow minded.

The concept that Apple is more trustfully than yourself seems to be quite dumb and naive to me. A trojan, virus etc. still will circumvent the write protection, it is one hack more. Who is protected against whom here? Is it really that the user is protected against security threads, or is it more like that the company is protected against users free will? So I think it is not hard to conclude that the real reason behind this is to take control over the users' devices and data, which is the common trend in IT and reality in iOS. Since you blindly have to trust a stock driven company. Are there any good examples of this concept in the computer world? Why you should do that?

Even worse, let's say the system volume is write protected and now there is a virus, you can't remove the virus yourself, you will be dependent on Apple then. The concept assumes that the Apple security is perfect. You might not even realize anymore that there is a virus installed.

In the end, the most of these strategies are more bad than good for users, developers, and also the ecosystem macos. And also that Apple plans the "total lock-in" a.k.a. a completely dependent not free user, it is not any more speculation, but obviously politics of Apple since a lot of years. And it starts with the way they now build their machines and concept the os.

And there was no reason to write protect the system volume, kext are not bad as they now are considered in the very badly-thought propaganda argumentation. Macs barely did crash or were compromised at all, even with 3rd party kexts. Also they will make a lot of third-party solutions impossible. And very often their own solutions are worse than third party.

Also adding a lot of complexity to a system does not increase the security, it makes it more vulnerable and more difficult to debug also.

If your macos experience is much better as a hackintosher than as a regular mac user, there is really something wrong. If they now removed the reasons to do hackintosh at all, that would have been the right direction. Instead, they mainly give new reasons. And they of course actively try to make hackintosh experience worse instead macos experience much better and open-minded.

In the end, it will be a extremely inflexible monopole-driven narrow-minded system. Actually it already is. Ok, you could argue that Windows has a similar direction, but at least not 50% of your plugins won't be usable anymore after the next system update. Also Microsoft stopped that OS version nonsense at least. In the end Windows nowadays seems to be much less effort, since Apple takes away all advantages of macos.
Last edited by MacGyver on Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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