Poll: How about an alliance against Apple strategies? (Catalina, OpenGL...)

DSP, Plug-in and Host development discussion.

Are you in?

Hell yeah!
66
50%
Let's try and revisit in a few months!
22
17%
I'm scared! Users would crucify us! :)
6
5%
No, I'm fine with what Apple does!
37
28%
 
Total votes: 131

User avatar
Urs
u-he
24075 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin

Post Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:54 am

JunSev wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:44 am
It has been explained very well actually and of course is a big problem because of the compatibility of older projects and plug-ins, even the concerns are understandable due to the constant bad moves of apple getting rid of things.

I don't like the fast obsolescence of the products I'm buying or the fact that my plug-ins are unusable in so short time so the corporations create more products and I need to drop more Cash $€£ for the last trendings... that's not ok.
What exactly are we talking about now?

I think we established that 32-bit only software is probably many years old, is less than 1% of what people use these days, and alternatives are plenty. We also established that OpenGL is still available. Furthermore the whole hoo-ha about security stuff is easily implemented by most plug-in developers.

How does that translate to "fast obsolescence"?

How many plug-in companies are really charging for upgrades annually when a new macOS comes out? If there are some, maybe it would be good to seek for alternatives.

Haptix
KVRist
54 posts since 18 Oct, 2019

Re: Poll: How about an alliance against Apple strategies? (Catalina, OpenGL...)

Post Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:00 am

mgw38 wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:54 am
fmr wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:56 am
mgw38 wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:54 am
fmr wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:41 am
And who says "nothing currently come close to Apples ARM chip"? :roll:
No need to eye roll. There are benchmarks for that and you can look that up.
Be nice, and post some links :wink:
Google it! (I always wanted to say that.:))

But seriously, look up „Tensorflow Lite performance benchmark“.

The latest Apple chip has 8 dedicated neural network cores. That is still nothing compared to the 128 cores of the Jetson nano or the more than 6000 cores of the latest GPUs. But it is significantly more than 0.
TFLite iOS benchmark app. An iOS app to benchmark TFLite models.

Seriously?
{"panic_string":"BAD MAGIC! :shrug: (flag set in iBoot panic header), no macOS panic log available"} "Apple did not respond to a request for comment."

User avatar
Urs
u-he
24075 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin

Re: Poll: How about an alliance against Apple strategies? (Catalina, OpenGL...)

Post Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:01 am

MrBauer wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:50 am
Very sad that not only 32bit support is dropped, but you can't even compile for 32bit anymore. To me that's a serious issue because it either implies running several build systems in parallel or follow the Apple movement and drop it. It would have been smarter to stop running 32bit software but let devs still do their work with and for it.
We simply keep our old build server (ten years old MacMini) up and running until it dies. If it does another two years, we'll have two more years of 32 bit support.

We had to implement two changes: Add a CMake option for 32 bit builds, and use a separate script for stripping 64-bit binaries (as opposed to fat ones).

Xcode 10 can still build for 10.7 as target SDK, using the usual tweaks, and hardened codesign & notarisation of the installer just worked as it should, without any changes.

MacGyver
KVRist
40 posts since 19 Apr, 2017

Re: Poll: How about an alliance against Apple strategies? (Catalina, OpenGL...)

Post Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:09 am

So there are:

- Apple haters
- Apple lovers
- OSX lovers who hate Apple
- OSX lovers who hate Apple lovers
- OSX convinced who hate macos
- Apple self-destructive fanboys
- Apple warmongers
- Windows fanboys hating Apple fanboys
- macos critics loosers
- os critics loosers
- macos baby users and their mom Apple

User avatar
MeldaProduction
KVRAF
11696 posts since 15 Mar, 2008 from Czech republic

Re: Poll: How about an alliance against Apple strategies? (Catalina, OpenGL...)

Post Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:13 am

:D :D :D
Vojtech - MeldaProduction
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User avatar
fmr
KVRAF
9015 posts since 16 Mar, 2003 from Porto - Portugal

Re: Poll: How about an alliance against Apple strategies? (Catalina, OpenGL...)

Post Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:18 am

mgw38 wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:54 am
But seriously, look up „Tensorflow Lite performance benchmark“.
That gave me nothing useful. You have some Android specific benchmarks, and some iOS specific benchmarks. Useless...
The latest Apple chip has 8 dedicated neural network cores. That is still nothing compared to the 128 cores of the Jetson nano or the more than 6000 cores of the latest GPUs. But it is significantly more than 0.
Questions is: What's the advantage of that (especially for audio, which is our concern)?

Here are some quotes:

"Whenever you are facing a task where massive parallelization may speed it up, GPUs will work orders of magnitude faster. An example of this would be computing the sum or product of two matrices."

Which processes like those do we have in audio? Or in everyday computer tasks? For what I read, there are only a few very specific tasks that could take advantage of this kind of AI.

"Now some other tasks may not be easily parallelized, which is why we still use CPUs. Conditional statements are hard on GPUs, because they have to halt all cores while waiting on a decision."

There you are. It seems this will not be the next big thing, after all. Anyway, for what I've read, if you really need deep AI learning, then it's better to install a GPU dedicated to those tasks, because there will not be a CPU that can compare.

As I said... HYPE.
Fernando (FMR)

MacGyver
KVRist
40 posts since 19 Apr, 2017

Re: Poll: How about an alliance against Apple strategies? (Catalina, OpenGL...)

Post Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:29 am

There were/are some interesting OpenCL driven VSTs at github. Since Apple deprecated OpenCL, this not relevant anymore.

User avatar
toonertik
KVRAF
1844 posts since 15 Feb, 2017 from a worn out vinyl groove

Re: Poll: How about an alliance against Apple strategies? (Catalina, OpenGL...)

Post Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:28 am

MacGyver wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:09 am
So there are:

- Apple haters
- Apple lovers
- OSX lovers who hate Apple
- OSX lovers who hate Apple lovers
- OSX convinced who hate macos
- Apple self-destructive fanboys
- Apple warmongers
- Windows fanboys hating Apple fanboys
- macos critics loosers
- os critics loosers
- macos baby users and their mom's Apple pie
ftfy
:hyper:

User avatar
stratology
KVRist
152 posts since 31 May, 2004 from Ireland

Re: Poll: How about an alliance against Apple strategies? (Catalina, OpenGL...)

Post Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:44 am

MacGyver wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:09 am
So there are:

- Apple haters
- Apple lovers
- OSX lovers who hate Apple
- OSX lovers who hate Apple lovers
- OSX convinced who hate macos
- Apple self-destructive fanboys
- Apple warmongers
- Windows fanboys hating Apple fanboys
- macos critics loosers
- os critics loosers
- macos baby users and their mom Apple
You forgot the most important one.

There are people who try to turn a discussion from technical to personal, because they're out of their depth on the technical side.

Ad hominem attacks attacks and name calling is an old, established method to distract from a subject matter.

When you don't have the knowledge or background to talk about the technology, you turn the discussion's focus to the people who use the technology, and use every cliché and prejudice in the book to discredit them.

Haptix
KVRist
54 posts since 18 Oct, 2019

Re: Poll: How about an alliance against Apple strategies? (Catalina, OpenGL...)

Post Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:51 am

stratology wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:44 am
MacGyver wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:09 am
So there are:

- Apple haters
- Apple lovers
- OSX lovers who hate Apple
- OSX lovers who hate Apple lovers
- OSX convinced who hate macos
- Apple self-destructive fanboys
- Apple warmongers
- Windows fanboys hating Apple fanboys
- macos critics loosers
- os critics loosers
- macos baby users and their mom Apple
You forgot the most important one.

There are people who try to turn a discussion from technical to personal, because they're out of their depth on the technical side.

Ad hominem attacks attacks and name calling is an old, established method to distract from a subject matter.

When you don't have the knowledge or background to talk about the technology, you turn the discussion's focus to the people who use the technology, and use every cliché and prejudice in the book to discredit them.
claims like yours has tendencies the shit to hit the fan, although there is no technical side in them at all.
{"panic_string":"BAD MAGIC! :shrug: (flag set in iBoot panic header), no macOS panic log available"} "Apple did not respond to a request for comment."

User avatar
el-bo (formerly ebow)
KVRAF
14868 posts since 24 May, 2009 from A galaxy, far far away

Re: Poll: How about an alliance against Apple strategies? (Catalina, OpenGL...)

Post Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:10 am

stratology wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:44 am
you turn the discussion's focus to the people who use the technology, and use every cliché and prejudice in the book to discredit them.
There is this perception of a platform war between MacOS/OSX and Windows. However, from the last couple of week's worth of threads, here on KVR, I'm struggling to find much, if any, anti-Windows sentiment (Neither against the platform, nor it's users), but the anti-Mac (Apple as a company, OS, and user-base) prejudice is rampant.

It seems most of us Mac-users on KVR are platform agnostic, with many of us running Windows concurrently with OSX. And the general consensus appears to be that at such a point that the negatives outweigh the positives (Each user having their own relative scale) we all seem quite capable of dropping the Mac platform, and looking elsewhere. Nothing religious about it :shrug:

User avatar
MeldaProduction
KVRAF
11696 posts since 15 Mar, 2008 from Czech republic

Re: Poll: How about an alliance against Apple strategies? (Catalina, OpenGL...)

Post Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:14 am

el-bo: The thing is, from my point of view it's not that Mac guys are platform agnostic, it's the contrary - they are too sensitive! If you tell a Windows guy that Windows suck, he won't care, it's a tool for him. But Mac guys are often very different... So imho while you'd like to think of yourself that you are better than others being tolerant and whatnot, I think the opposite. Sorry. But who knows...
Vojtech - MeldaProduction
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User avatar
Vokbuz
KVRist
101 posts since 24 Aug, 2014 from Moscow

Re: Poll: How about an alliance against Apple strategies? (Catalina, OpenGL...)

Post Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:43 am

MeldaProduction wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:14 am
it's not that Mac guys are platform agnostic, it's the contrary - they are too sensitive!
Really funny to see you use term "too sensitive" on people who do not share your obviously emotional hatred for Catalina update and Apple. That is not sensitive at all.
Last edited by Vokbuz on Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
mladi
KVRian
684 posts since 14 Apr, 2016 from Germany

Re: Poll: How about an alliance against Apple strategies? (Catalina, OpenGL...)

Post Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:44 am

MacGyver wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 6:09 am
So there are:

- Apple haters
- Apple lovers
- OSX lovers who hate Apple
- OSX lovers who hate Apple lovers
- OSX convinced who hate macos
- Apple self-destructive fanboys
- Apple warmongers
- Windows fanboys hating Apple fanboys
- macos critics loosers
- os critics loosers
- macos baby users and their mom Apple
Amanda: My pants are looser than they were last week!
Megan: Wow! I don't give a f**k!
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User avatar
fmr
KVRAF
9015 posts since 16 Mar, 2003 from Porto - Portugal

Re: Poll: How about an alliance against Apple strategies? (Catalina, OpenGL...)

Post Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:45 am

Vokbuz wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:43 am
... Catalina update and Apple.
Calling Catalina an "update" is an understatement :hihi:
Fernando (FMR)

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