Email from Apple about Catalina :)

DSP, Plug-in and Host development discussion.
frizzbee
KVRist
252 posts since 11 Jan, 2015

Post Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:40 am

Urs wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:27 am
Now. Why is there Vulcan when OpenGL did the job just fine? Because, it didn't. So why cling to a concept that has been developed long before current GPU paradigms when there are far superior alternatives which actually save energy and utilise features not otherwise accessible? And let's give people 10 years to figure it out.
weren't you one of the first guys that cried out in another thread you have to redo your ui code to maybe port it to metal now, because there is something broken? do you really think it's a good idea to stop supporting a cross platform library in favor of a closed mac only one? i wouldn't mind if opengl is too old, it still just works (more performant than any software rendering) and is easy to maintain crossplatform.

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MeldaProduction
KVRAF
11702 posts since 15 Mar, 2008 from Czech republic

Re: Email from Apple about Catalina :)

Post Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:45 am

frizzbee wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:40 am
Urs wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:27 am
Now. Why is there Vulcan when OpenGL did the job just fine? Because, it didn't. So why cling to a concept that has been developed long before current GPU paradigms when there are far superior alternatives which actually save energy and utilise features not otherwise accessible? And let's give people 10 years to figure it out.
weren't you one of the first guys that cried out in another thread you have to redo your ui code to maybe port it to metal now, because there is something broken? do you really think it's a good idea to stop supporting a cross platform library in favor of a closed mac only one? i wouldn't mind if opengl is too old, it still just works (more performant than any software rendering) and is easy to maintain crossplatform.
Exactly! Sure, remove native opengl, but make an emulation using metal. Better than forcing every developer to do just that.
Vojtech - MeldaProduction
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JunSev
KVRian
750 posts since 14 Sep, 2017

Re: Email from Apple about Catalina :)

Post Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:50 am

machinesworking wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:00 am
I'm not giving up my 09 Mac Pro, it's too powerful and too much money to replace with any PC or Mac, so I'm always going to have a 32 bit capable system.
Macs are overrated, you shouldn't jump in the hypes of apple or the looks (one of the main reasons lot of people go for apple products), also is easily replaceable with other machines.
too much money to replace with any PC or Mac
Price of things doesn't mean better, some products are so overhyped that corporations increases the prices of their products without any sense because there will be always some users that will drop the Cash $€£ for the "trendings", and are unwilling to recognize the reality of what is happening.

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Urs
u-he
24100 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin

Re: Email from Apple about Catalina :)

Post Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:23 am

frizzbee wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:40 am
weren't you one of the first guys that cried out in another thread you have to redo your ui code to maybe port it to metal now, because there is something broken?
I wasn't using OpenGL though. And we got it sorted with some minor changes. (Oh yes, Apple isn't all the green of the egg all the time either)

And as has been laid out several times, OpenGL still works in Catalina. So it's not just "gone overnite" as some people seem to think.

Haptix
KVRist
55 posts since 18 Oct, 2019

Re: Email from Apple about Catalina :)

Post Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:43 am

"And as has been laid out several times, OpenGL still works in Catalina. So it's not just "gone overnite" as some people seem to think."

Well yeah, it does give you the options, you can either wait until it is dropped or you can start migrating straight away and once it is dropped you will be ready. At the end you still need to migrate from it, so it is "dropped" already. You will need forget the whole thing existed anyways, no?
{"panic_string":"BAD MAGIC! :shrug: (flag set in iBoot panic header), no macOS panic log available"} "Apple did not respond to a request for comment."

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Urs
u-he
24100 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin

Re: Email from Apple about Catalina :)

Post Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:02 am

There's a big difference in being deprecated over so and so many years and things being "dropped already". You can research frameworks and abstractions that look more future proof. You can gather tutorials on converting OpenGL code to Vulcan or Metal. You can schedule the steps necessary for a point of time where the stuff is undergoing maintenance and improvements anyway. In other words, you have plenty off time to prepare. Unless of course, you never really think about the future and wait things out until it's really gone.

machinesworking
KVRAF
1867 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle

Re: Email from Apple about Catalina :)

Post Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:09 am

Angus_FX wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:06 am
What you're fighting is nothing new, you want a cross platform solution, and Apple has IMO very obviously mostly been aggressively against that. For what at times are good reasons. AU flatly came around because Windows ports of VSTs often were half backed, crashes were common, almost always related to GUI tweaking etc. Flatly we wouldn't have the AU debacle if VST Windows developers had taken any decent amount of time to port their plug ins, but they didn't and we have another annoying standard. Not you in particular, but people like you who are lazy, caused AU. Had VSTs not contained too much non Apple code and crashed all over the place you would be happier. So, in effect, Apple is forcing you to do more work because too many Windows developers ported poorly their products over, leaving non mac OS code that caused issues. (this obviously was partially Steinbergs fault as well)
That's not correct - Apple wanted control of the standard when they moved to OS X, probably because Steinberg made it clear they were never interested in VST being an open standard or a community-driven process. There is nothing whatsoever inherent to AU architecture which makes it more resilient to "crashes from GUI tweaking". At best, AU is a speed-hump: by making things slightly more difficult, some of the (allegedly) "lazy" developers might drop out before they reach the finish line.
Funny, some of us have been chatting about this stuff for years. You and Urs both spent a good amount of time talking about Audio Units and what you thought about it on osxaudio.com what? 15 years ago? :o

I think you're downplaying or forgetting what the guy from Emagic/Apple said about that, and you're not inherently disagreeing with me there. If AU is a speed bump to a bad port, then that's what the Logic team wanted, and would have been pretty much obviously pushed by them internally. One point here doesn't negate the other, Apple wanted control of the standard, and that control helps to force native code.

machinesworking
KVRAF
1867 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle

Re: Email from Apple about Catalina :)

Post Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:15 am

JunSev wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:50 am
machinesworking wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 10:00 am
I'm not giving up my 09 Mac Pro, it's too powerful and too much money to replace with any PC or Mac, so I'm always going to have a 32 bit capable system.
Macs are overrated, you shouldn't jump in the hypes of apple or the looks (one of the main reasons lot of people go for apple products), also is easily replaceable with other machines.
too much money to replace with any PC or Mac
Price of things doesn't mean better, some products are so overhyped that corporations increases the prices of their products without any sense because there will be always some users that will drop the Cash $€£ for the "trendings", and are unwilling to recognize the reality of what is happening.
:dog: :dog:

Macs are computers, crazy eh?
The Mac Pro here has two 6 core 3.33ghz Xeon Chips, 24GB RAM, two M.2 512GB cards 3TB HD, 5TB HD, Radeon 580 etc. etc.

Even if it had your precious Windows on it, it would still not be worth selling, it's still more powerful for big mixes than most computers you could buy today for large mixes. It has little to do with your hatred of an OS you don't even use.

elxsound
KVRAF
5338 posts since 18 Aug, 2007 from NYC

Re: Email from Apple about Catalina :)

Post Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:40 am

From what I’ve been reading... Doesn’t the developer (after the extra “lines on the command line”) just have to submit the installer to Apple for notarization?

And doesn’t Melda infamously supply just the one installer?

So OpenGL deprecation conversation aside, for the current iteration of Catalina compatibility, doesn’t the changes just have to be added to the lone installer?

JCJR
KVRAF
2872 posts since 17 Apr, 2005 from S.E. TN

Re: Email from Apple about Catalina :)

Post Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:01 am

machinesworking wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:15 am
Macs are computers, crazy eh?
The Mac Pro here has two 6 core 3.33ghz Xeon Chips, 24GB RAM, two M.2 512GB cards 3TB HD, 5TB HD, Radeon 580 etc. etc.

Even if it had your precious Windows on it, it would still not be worth selling, it's still more powerful for big mixes than most computers you could buy today for large mixes. It has little to do with your hatred of an OS you don't even use.
I keep thinking about putting a couple of 1 TB SSDs in my 8core xeon cheezegrater and installing win10 "from the ground up on empty drives". Its just been sitting idle, hasn't been booted for several years. Has an old OSX something or the other and VMWare winders on it.

The DVD drive is so choked with dust that it won't read discs so I'd either have to hunt down an external, or replace the drive, or install winders from some other media.

I'd like to install it with no bootcamp at all. A few years ago was reading that this is mostly possible on a fresh install onto completely unformatted drives, except maybe a couple of drivers that there is no generic microsoft equivalent that will work.

machinesworking
KVRAF
1867 posts since 15 Aug, 2003 from seattle

Re: Email from Apple about Catalina :)

Post Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:22 am

JCJR wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:01 am
I keep thinking about putting a couple of 1 TB SSDs in my 8core xeon cheezegrater and installing win10 "from the ground up on empty drives". Its just been sitting idle, hasn't been booted for several years. Has an old OSX something or the other and VMWare winders on it.

The DVD drive is so choked with dust that it won't read discs so I'd either have to hunt down an external, or replace the drive, or install winders from some other media.

I'd like to install it with no bootcamp at all. A few years ago was reading that this is mostly possible on a fresh install onto completely unformatted drives, except maybe a couple of drivers that there is no generic microsoft equivalent that will work.
I've heard of people doing that. Personally I don't think I'll convert it to Windows since like I mentioned it serves as a 'legacy' device, it will probably end up a VEP "rack". Laptops are getting so powerful these days I'm seriously thinking the next one could last me ten plus years, the one I'm typing on is 7 years old and still has competitive specs. So a machine to store data in and keep legacy software on seems good enough.

The only bad bottleneck on the Mac Pros (09 anyway) is the SATA bus, it's running at 2 I believe? (less than 400mbs for SSDs), and the PCIe bus is 10x faster. Genelteck sell a PCIe card to get 6gbs out of 4 M.2 cards in a carrier, but at that point, just get a modern computer right? :hihi:

Angus_FX
KVRAF
4697 posts since 18 Jul, 2002 from London, UK

Re: Email from Apple about Catalina :)

Post Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:19 pm

The only other problem with the old cheesegraters (I still have one as a family computer.. nearly 12 years that thing's been running) is that they are rather energy inefficient by today's standards. Nice machines in many respects but I suspect a modern quadcore NUC would be just as quick and pay for itself fairly quickly in energy savings.
Last edited by Angus_FX on Tue Oct 22, 2019 12:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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FabienTDR
KVRian
1041 posts since 24 Feb, 2012

Re: Email from Apple about Catalina :)

Post Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:24 pm

MeldaProduction wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 2:11 am
If you have 32-bit applications or components that are either not ready or will be EOL'd, please share this 32-bit transition language:
--------------------------
macOS 64-Bit Transition Developer Guidance
Apple began transitioning to 64-bit hardware and software technology for Mac over a decade ago, and all modern Macs now include powerful 64-bit processors that can run advanced 64-bit apps. Apple's transition to 64-bit technology is now complete. Starting with macOS Catalina, 32-bit apps are no longer compatible with macOS.

For Developers Working on Updating:
We are working with Apple to complete a 64-bit version of [software/app name], and will have an update to share soon. In the meantime, please note that [software/app name] will not work on macOS Catalina. If you wish to continue using this software/app, please continue to do so on macOS Mojave.

For Developers Discontinuing Their App:
[Software/app] for macOS is a 32-bit app that is not compatible with macOS Catalina, so the product is being discontinued. If you wish to continue using this software/app, please continue to do so on macOS Mojave.
Thanks for your effort. Their Orwellian answers truly affray me. Interesting to read between the lines how much they are used mess with dependent people. They aren't used to today's audio cowboys and their idea of freedom and liberty.

Much respect for your honesty and bravery.

Wording suggestion: "Catalina is not yet capable to run this expert software" ;)
Fabien from Tokyo Dawn Records

Check out my audio processors over at the Tokyo Dawn Labs!

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MeldaProduction
KVRAF
11702 posts since 15 Mar, 2008 from Czech republic

Re: Email from Apple about Catalina :)

Post Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:28 pm

FabienTDR wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:24 pm
MeldaProduction wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 2:11 am
If you have 32-bit applications or components that are either not ready or will be EOL'd, please share this 32-bit transition language:
--------------------------
macOS 64-Bit Transition Developer Guidance
Apple began transitioning to 64-bit hardware and software technology for Mac over a decade ago, and all modern Macs now include powerful 64-bit processors that can run advanced 64-bit apps. Apple's transition to 64-bit technology is now complete. Starting with macOS Catalina, 32-bit apps are no longer compatible with macOS.

For Developers Working on Updating:
We are working with Apple to complete a 64-bit version of [software/app name], and will have an update to share soon. In the meantime, please note that [software/app name] will not work on macOS Catalina. If you wish to continue using this software/app, please continue to do so on macOS Mojave.

For Developers Discontinuing Their App:
[Software/app] for macOS is a 32-bit app that is not compatible with macOS Catalina, so the product is being discontinued. If you wish to continue using this software/app, please continue to do so on macOS Mojave.
Thanks for your effort. Their Orwellian answers truly affray me. Interesting to read between the lines how much they are used mess with dependent people. They aren't used to today's audio cowboys and their idea of freedom and liberty.

Much respect for your honesty and bravery.

Wording suggestion: "Catalina is not yet capable to run this expert software" ;)
:love: :clap:
Vojtech - MeldaProduction
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JCJR
KVRAF
2872 posts since 17 Apr, 2005 from S.E. TN

Re: Email from Apple about Catalina :)

Post Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:52 pm

Angus_FX wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:19 pm
The only other problem with the old cheesegraters (I still have one as a family computer.. nearly 12 years that thing's been running) is that they are rather energy efficient by today's standards. Nice machines in many respects but I suspect a modern quadcore NUC would be just as quick and pay for itself fairly quickly in energy savings.
Thanks machinesworking and Angus.

IIRC mine is either early or late 2008.

Mine makes a good auxiliary room space heater in the winter and as best I recall it is fairly loud. Some of that would probably go away replacing the four 2 tb hard drives with a couple of ssd's. But the fan itself seemed fairly loud as best I recall. I had to blow it out purt regularly probably because the fan sucked so much air obviously also vacuuming the room free of dust. Combination computer, space heater and air cleaner! :)

It benchmarked purt good for the time. File system seemed a little slow but I tended to blame that on macos and not the hardware. Just a wild guess unless taking time to test running it native on Windows to compare.

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