Email from Apple about Catalina :)

DSP, Plug-in and Host development discussion.
Markus Krause
KVRist
223 posts since 2 Jul, 2018

Post Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:22 pm

FabienTDR wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:24 pm

Thanks for your effort. Their Orwellian answers truly affray me. Interesting to read between the lines how much they are used mess with dependent people. They aren't used to today's audio cowboys and their idea of freedom and liberty.

Much respect for your honesty and bravery.

Wording suggestion: "Catalina is not yet capable to run this expert software" ;)
Received this email aswell. It's a 'soft' attempt of doing censorshipt by 'recommending' the dev what he should do and what not. I really was upset when i read between the lines.
What's thy are trying to do is blaming their lack of downward compatibility to the developers while advertizing their own stuff.
Last edited by Markus Krause on Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
Tone2 Audiosoftware https://www.tone2.com

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Urs
u-he
24104 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin

Re: Email from Apple about Catalina :)

Post Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:34 pm

FabienTDR wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:24 pm
Orwellian
Here's what's truly Orwellian:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpbeOCKZFfQ

And I bet there's a 3 or 4 digit number of people mulling over what to do about this in Seattle as well.

("but, what about her emails?" - we live in a world where a single hacked computer can change the outcome of a democratic election...)

Markus Krause
KVRist
223 posts since 2 Jul, 2018

Re: Email from Apple about Catalina :)

Post Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:40 pm

Urs: please try to stick to the topic
Tone2 Audiosoftware https://www.tone2.com

mcbpete
KVRAF
1602 posts since 24 Jun, 2006 from London, England

Re: Email from Apple about Catalina :)

Post Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:42 pm

Urs wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:34 pm
FabienTDR wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:24 pm
Orwellian
Here's what's truly Orwellian:

.....
("but, what about her emails?" - we live in a world where a single hacked computer can change the outcome of a democratic election...)
Aye, if you get a chance check out the Netflix doc 'The Great Hack' - It's about all their doings, and they've done a lot over the last few years !

User avatar
Urs
u-he
24104 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin

Re: Email from Apple about Catalina :)

Post Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:46 pm

Markus Krause wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:40 pm
Urs: please try to stick to the topic
I'm trying to. The days where any software can just do anything is over. You dislike certificates? Don't blame Apple for it, blame the Alexander Nyxes of this world.

User avatar
sfd
KVRian
1400 posts since 14 Jul, 2013 from Sweden

Re: Email from Apple about Catalina :)

Post Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:48 pm

@MeldaProduction

Could you please explain what exactly your problem is ?

And could you do that without hints, rewrites, irony and jokes. But instead just be straight forward, factual and specific.
Image

Markus Krause
KVRist
223 posts since 2 Jul, 2018

Re: Email from Apple about Catalina :)

Post Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:55 pm

Urs wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:46 pm
Markus Krause wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:40 pm
Urs: please try to stick to the topic
I'm trying to. The days where any software can just do anything is over. You dislike certificates? Don't blame Apple for it, blame the Alexander Nyxes of this world.
In practise it means loosing one week of work for me, since over 50 pkg files have to be rebundeled and validated. Work that i don't get paid for and that could better have been invested in adding new features.

I also does not prevent cracks on our software, since none of our binaries on Mac did get tampered in the past.

So no. I am not happy.
Tone2 Audiosoftware https://www.tone2.com

Markus Krause
KVRist
223 posts since 2 Jul, 2018

Re: Email from Apple about Catalina :)

Post Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:01 pm

I'll quote here what fxpansion says about the certificates:
For plug-ins: this won't protect against piracy, because the signature checks are (for now) only run against software which has the "quarantine bit" set. This bit is set on all software downloaded from the web for example, but can easily be removed with a command-line tool. Once the quarantine bit is removed, the system will treat the plug-in as safe/valid regardless of whether it is or not, and won't perform signature checks.

For installers: the default behaviour offers some minimal protection (in that an unverified, quarantined installer won't run, or will require a rightclick-open to run).. but a simple command-line script tool can again be run to remove the quarantine bit. As such, anyone with enough technical know-how to run a torrent client can probably work around it.
Tone2 Audiosoftware https://www.tone2.com

User avatar
JunSev
KVRian
750 posts since 14 Sep, 2017

Re: Email from Apple about Catalina :)

Post Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:47 pm

Urs wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:34 pm
FabienTDR wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:24 pm
Orwellian
Here's what's truly Orwellian:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpbeOCKZFfQ

And I bet there's a 3 or 4 digit number of people mulling over what to do about this in Seattle as well.

("but, what about her emails?" - we live in a world where a single hacked computer can change the outcome of a democratic election...)
Please stay on topic Urs, let the other independent developers to share their experience, you might have help programming and coding and you have a bigger user base probably, but this is a real problem for many others developers coding and programming almost alone if not all by themselves.

Some apple users were trying to derail other threads were all of these facts are being exposed in order to deviate the attention of what's happening, We don't want that here.

With all respect.

User avatar
sfd
KVRian
1400 posts since 14 Jul, 2013 from Sweden

Re: Email from Apple about Catalina :)

Post Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:12 pm

Urs wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:34 pm
FabienTDR wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:24 pm
Orwellian
Here's what's truly Orwellian:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mpbeOCKZFfQ

And I bet there's a 3 or 4 digit number of people mulling over what to do about this in Seattle as well.

("but, what about her emails?" - we live in a world where a single hacked computer can change the outcome of a democratic election...)
+1 :tu:
Image

User avatar
audiothing
KVRian
1368 posts since 13 Apr, 2011

Re: Email from Apple about Catalina :)

Post Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:22 pm

JunSev wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:47 pm
Please stay on topic Urs, let the other independent developers to share their experience, you might have help programming and coding and you have a bigger user base probably, but this is a real problem for many others developers coding and programming almost alone if not all by themselves.

Some apple users were trying to derail other threads were all of these facts are being exposed in order to deviate the attention of what's happening, We don't want that here.

With all respect.
In my experience as a sole programmer/coder, this wasn't a problem at all.
I'll repost this here as well as it might get lost in the several threads regarding this topic.
Adding notarization and stapling to my build system took just a couple of hours of research/work. If anyone needs help with it, check this thread and read this document.

I can understand that if you have dozens of installers, notarizing/uploading all of them might take a while (but with a build script shouldn't really be an issue, this shouldn't even be a manual task, to be honest).

32bit plugins, in 2019 shouldn't be discussed IMHO.

Regarding the other 2 "issues" with Catalina, again, you can check my other post here.
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FabienTDR
KVRian
1041 posts since 24 Feb, 2012

Re: Email from Apple about Catalina :)

Post Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:31 pm

Urs, it's clean, fair and fun until Apple decides to develop and sell synths. ;)

I admit this is an extreme example, but I wonder how you can welcome such an additional risk, at your own expense, for so little benefit. I do not enjoy Apple trampling over this question as they do now, and I certainly don't want to encourage them to impose "more of it". They'll do until they can't (e.g. EU regulations, bad PR, pros publicly questionning Apple as an audio platform).

From their last report, "Apple service revenue is expected to grow" over the next years. :pray:
Last edited by FabienTDR on Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:06 pm, edited 6 times in total.
Fabien from Tokyo Dawn Records

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audiothing
KVRian
1368 posts since 13 Apr, 2011

Re: Email from Apple about Catalina :)

Post Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:34 pm

Markus Krause wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:55 pm
In practise it means loosing one week of work for me, since over 50 pkg files have to be rebundeled and validated. Work that i don't get paid for and that could better have been invested in adding new features.
I don't see it that way. You get paid by future Catalina users that may buy your products. Since you already spent one week on that, you definitely think it's worth it, don't you?

I'm the first to whine and complain every time I have to change my workflow, adapt to new laws, implement new requirements. But that's the nature of developing cross-platform software. Nobody is forcing us to support a specific platform. I've dropped support for 32bit more than a year ago because it wasn't worth it for me anymore.
AudioThing (VST, AU, AAX Plugins)
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Zaphod (giancarlo)
KVRAF
2498 posts since 23 Jun, 2006

Re: Email from Apple about Catalina :)

Post Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:35 pm

audiothing wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:22 pm
JunSev wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:47 pm
Please stay on topic Urs, let the other independent developers to share their experience, you might have help programming and coding and you have a bigger user base probably, but this is a real problem for many others developers coding and programming almost alone if not all by themselves.

Some apple users were trying to derail other threads were all of these facts are being exposed in order to deviate the attention of what's happening, We don't want that here.

With all respect.
In my experience as a sole programmer/coder, this wasn't a problem at all.
I'll repost this here as well as it might get lost in the several threads regarding this topic.
Adding notarization and stapling to my build system took just a couple of hours of research/work. If anyone needs help with it, check this thread and read this document.

I can understand that if you have dozens of installers, notarizing/uploading all of them might take a while (but with a build script shouldn't really be an issue, this shouldn't even be a manual task, to be honest).

32bit plugins, in 2019 shouldn't be discussed IMHO.

Regarding the other 2 "issues" with Catalina, again, you can check my other post here.
No doubt it is simple for several ones (monolithic copy protection, simple installer based on package maker). Maybe it is a lot of work if your install manager is patching executables (and I'm not alone, avast has a similar issue)

The same for opengl, there is nothing to do if you don't use it, maybe it is a lot of work if you use opengl and you have to rewrite and test the code again

The same for Intel deprecation, maybe it is a lot of work if you rely on Intel libraries, , otherwise it is a single line of work, and so on

This is what makes me nuts in these topics, the "it was 3 lines of code for me, I don't understand your issues".
I agree, this is our homework, this is the price for supporting the platform, but it doesn't mean it is universally easy or simple to do.
It is a wheel, I'll remind people next time they'll try to debug a user machine and they'll raise a topic.

Zaphod (giancarlo)
KVRAF
2498 posts since 23 Jun, 2006

Re: Email from Apple about Catalina :)

Post Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:49 pm

FabienTDR wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:31 pm
Urs, it's clean, fair and fun until they Apple decides to develop and sell synths. ;)

I admit this is an extreme example, but I wonder how you can welcome such an additional risk, at your own expense, for so little benefit. I do not enjoy Apple trampling over this question as they do now, and I certainly don't want to encourage them to impose "more of it". They'll do until they can't (e.g. EU regulations, bad PR, pros publicly questionning Apple as an audio platform).

From their last report, "Apple service revenue is expected to grow" over the next years. This is one part of it, I guess not just the first.
+1

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