ReFx Nexus 3 (N3) Finally here!

[steve.lindqvist]

Cut up the part/clip/region on every beat (do not use zero crossing functions), so that you’ll have all the bounced/rendere notes as single slices:[/i]

Zoom in. Now you can see the inaccurate timing quite well:

Might as well be caused by the cutting.

You're serious now???

[Ryan99]

I'm liking where this is going, refx, you sexy beast!

Nice, they keep giving more details every few days! Can't wait to see a preview of the interface.

It’s their pre-Advent calendar before their Advent calendar.

[daradei]

I'm liking where this is going, refx, you sexy beast!

Nice, they keep giving more details every few days! Can't wait to see a preview of the interface.

It’s their pre-Advent calendar before their Advent calendar.

[steve.lindqvist]

do you make music or do a math exam? Honestly... 1ms resolution, thats 1000 steps per second should be way enough if you make MUSIC.

I'd like to comment on the timing topic one last time, because I honestly don't like it myself when new announcements are immediately overwhelmed with bug reports and old slats. I feel bad about it, but the subject has been a thorn in my side for years. And from your reaction, I'm assuming that nothing's changed in this regard.

To demonstrate it easily with a musical example (only two tracks, only two!), I have made an audio example with corresponding graphics.
It's a kick and a bass from the XP EDM controlled by MIDI (don't sue me, it's only for demonstration purposes).
130 BPM, four on the floor kick and a simple eighth note bass, that's all it takes:



Listen to the red marked kick drums compared to the other ones (just in case someone doesn't even hear this example...)

https://vocaroo.com/i/s10iva4xmtym AUDIO EXAMPLE HERE
You can even hear it here, despite the fatal quality reduction of this hoster (low mp3 quality).
Wav quality download here: https://www.mediafire.com/file/6omoknaa ... g.wav/file

The problem is caused due to the 1 ms timer drift. Kick vs bass, see here:



Yes, I know this is an exaggerated example, specially chosen to make it clearly audible (transient-rich sounds). I also know that there are modulations under the hood that I can't always deactivate (bass), yet the audible(!) problem here is caused by the loose timing of Nexus.
In my ears this is significant.

[dionenoid]

No it's not an issue for all synths, AVENGER doesn't do it

Avenger does it too. I noticed it when layering two kicks from one of the expansions. Mostly they play in sync but every now and then 1 will sound different. The only way to avoid is to bounce to audio and work from there. Sampling the sampler basically

Luckily things like Falcon, Kontakt and even the simple Cubase sampler don't suffer from this problem.

[m-ac]

do you make music or do a math exam? Honestly... 1ms resolution, thats 1000 steps per second should be way enough if you make MUSIC.

I'd like to comment on the timing topic one last time, because I honestly don't like it myself when new announcements are immediately overwhelmed with bug reports and old slats. I feel bad about it, but the subject has been a thorn in my side for years. And from your reaction, I'm assuming that nothing's changed in this regard.

To demonstrate it easily with a musical example (only two tracks, only two!), I have made an audio example with corresponding graphics.
It's a kick and a bass from the XP EDM controlled by MIDI (don't sue me, it's only for demonstration purposes).
130 BPM, four on the floor kick and a simple eighth note bass, that's all it takes:



Listen to the red marked kick drums compared to the other ones (just in case someone doesn't even hear this example...)

https://vocaroo.com/i/s10iva4xmtym AUDIO EXAMPLE HERE
You can even hear it here, despite the fatal quality reduction of this hoster (low mp3 quality).
Wav quality download here: https://www.mediafire.com/file/6omoknaa ... g.wav/file

The problem is caused due to the 1 ms timer drift. Kick vs bass, see here:



Yes, I know this is an exaggerated example, specially chosen to make it clearly audible (transient-rich sounds). I also know that there are modulations under the hood that I can't always deactivate (bass), yet the audible(!) problem here is caused by the loose timing of Nexus.
In my ears this is significant.

I hear it loud and clear. I wish I didn't, but I do

Hopefully, this (a kick and a downbeat bass played on nexus together) is the worst case scenario, so shouldn't be a huge issue in day to day use. I very rarely use drums from nexus so it's not something I've noticed in 10 years or so of use.

[mladi]

Doesn't a pro bounce the kick and the bass anyway?

[steve.lindqvist]

Doesn't a pro bounce the kick and the bass anyway?

Damn, you got me!

[Loudness_Contour]

do you make music or do a math exam? Honestly... 1ms resolution, thats 1000 steps per second should be way enough if you make MUSIC.

The problem is caused due to the 1 ms timer drift. Kick vs bass, see here:



Yes, I know this is an exaggerated example, specially chosen to make it clearly audible (transient-rich sounds). I also know that there are modulations under the hood that I can't always deactivate (bass), yet the audible(!) problem here is caused by the loose timing of Nexus.
In my ears this is significant.

Out_of_phase.jpg

[samsam]

Couldn't listen to the audio after the robo voice rhymed 'bass' with an American 'ass'. Not a good look.

[KenjiDeVries]

Out_of_phase.jpg

It makes a major difference in layers and it does not only apply to drums... Only 1 sample offset has the most impact on comb filtering. But hey, I like those phasey machine gun sounds in Nexus XD

[mitchiemasha]

do you make music or do a math exam? Honestly... 1ms resolution, thats 1000 steps per second should be way enough if you make MUSIC. To raise the resolution would mean heavy impact on the CPU, and I mean HEAVY. We had a high resolution once in Avenger, but it was unusable, after few voices it got far beyond 100% CPU. So I really never noticed any problems in my 10 years making audio demos and sounds from Nexus. Listen to the audio demos, do you hear a timing problem there?

Ok MAN

do you make music or do a math exam?

This is the same condescending tone I pulled Michael for. It doesn't matter if I (or others who don't like this issue) make music or do a maths exam. It is an issue for us, to part with our cash we'd like to see it fixed or a way to work round it, like we can in 1080, M1. Your objection and reasoning, like his to our original request, is welcomed but it doesn't need to start with an attack.

Lets be clear AVENGER does not have this issue

We had a high resolution once in Avenger, but it was unusable,

so not sure what that means. It took you less than a week to fix the timing issue after I pointed out over on your page here. Kontakt and others have manage perfectly fine to be sample accurate

So I really never noticed any problems in my 10 years making audio demos and sounds from Nexus

You wont... I already specified, within 1 instance their is no issue with layers, the drift is the same for each waveform, no phase errors occur. As you can create the layers within 1 Nexus (we can't), it's not an issue to the design of that performance.

Listen to the audio demos, do you hear a timing problem there?

Again no... I already specified, that we are kind of using it as unintended. The issue isn't between presets that make what are different instruments in your song, shifting phase to each other, this is often welcomed, a human effect, unintended swing. The issue is when trying to make a new "unified" sound, 1 instrument, using the waveforms from multiple instance. The random nature of this shift can cause 1 note to occasionally stick out ugly and wrong. Especially off beat stabs that you want to be defined as they are. It might not be "organic", it might be less "natural" or not very "human" but, that as a user is how I want it.

Not to mention how it can smear the transients of a pluck.

[mitchiemasha]

Thank you Steve for putting the effort into the details. At least for those not bothered, when they finally have the problem, they'll know what it is, unlike the months of time lost to trouble shooting for us not knowing.

[mitchiemasha]

To expand, we might add chorus to our sound, phaser, many FX to make the texture of the same note drift over time. We may even turn off waveform retrigger or have random phase starting points of the waveform. All off these things are good. However, the nature of the shift in Nexus the "comb filtering" that occurs because of this can result in 3 off beat stabs exactly the same, then 1 odd. Then 5 the same, another odd. It doesn't flow naturally, it sounds like a glitch. Same goes for smeared transients.

It's worth noting the Virus TI is sample accurate but it also has a similar issue when using detuned unison, listen to the attack on this sound.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BzUqo ... UNVOGhpWkk

listen to how every so often the plucky transient turns into a strum. The patch is useless and unfixable. I hardly use the TI anymore. AVENGER is my favourite synth. Max respect for MAN on that one.

If CPU hit is unfixable, the only way round it would be to open up the performance programming sound bank creators have. To make it multipart, multi channel editable within 1 instance, like the M1.

[msvs]

I know what you mean and understand the "problem" , but however, I can understand refx that they dont change it. Like I said it could have impact on the CPU and you both are the only ones ever bothered in 10 years. So I dont think you should not expect anything anytime soon. Next time I have a session with Mike I could speak about this topic, but I guess he will tell me some good reasons that it must stay as it is. Sorry not the answer you both were hoping for, but I am just honest with you.