32 bit windows plugins dropped because of Mac Catalina?

DSP, Plug-in and Host development discussion.
earlevel
KVRist
499 posts since 4 Apr, 2010

Post Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:40 pm

syntonica wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:47 am
earlevel wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:14 am
(Also keep in mind that in some cases, supporting the oldest OS's means you probably need to avoid modern OS features to dumb it down.)
Which modern OS features do you need for a plugin?

(That's actually a legit question. I get by on C++, Cocoa and GDI+.)
Sure, it's a fair question. It's also one I could spend more time that I want to on, should I list something that someone disagrees with or doesn't think it's good enough reason. But let me give an example of something totally different. I can't use the latest version of Blender, because they decided to not support my video card (early 2009 Mac Pro).

But what I was mainly getting at is in supporting old OS versions. That doesn't necessarily mean a given feature can't be used, it might just mean that it causes more baggage or inefficiency, and it might just mean that the programmer has to do more work. My latest plugins support back to Mac OS X 10.8, for instance, and some have argued it should be at least 10.6 (ten years old). I see Ozone 9 has a minimum of 10.11, as does Pro Tools. Reaper supports back to 10.5.

BTW, one important thing many people don't consider in arguing the validity of supporting 32-bit still longer: Yes, a good number of people are still on 32-bit plugins. But I'd suppose that a large percentage of them—compared to 64-bit folks—do not actively buy plugins. So, if one were to say that the 64-/32-bit shares were 80%/20% (to use an arbitrary ratio), you still can't say ignoring 32-bit is ignoring 20% of the market, because the question should really about buyers. And it's likely that buyers tip the scale much more heavily towards 64-bit.
My audio DSP blog: earlevel.com

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syntonica
KVRian
545 posts since 25 Sep, 2014 from Specific Northwest

Re: 32 bit windows plugins dropped because of Mac Catalina?

Post Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:16 pm

earlevel wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:40 pm
But what I was mainly getting at is in supporting old OS versions. That doesn't necessarily mean a given feature can't be used, it might just mean that it causes more baggage or inefficiency, and it might just mean that the programmer has to do more work. My latest plugins support back to Mac OS X 10.8, for instance, and some have argued it should be at least 10.6 (ten years old). I see Ozone 9 has a minimum of 10.11, as does Pro Tools. Reaper supports back to 10.5.
On the Mac side, I think that's more the devs following the Apple flow than anything else. Right now, I get two deprecation warnings in Xcode 9 when I compile--I need to use the newer standard lib (which would force me to go 10.7 or newer) and I need to drop the whole 32-bit thing. I still have code for supporting gluing my GUI onto a Carbon window, mostly because I'm stubborn and spent an eternity figuring it out. :lol: Fortunately, I only need Cocoa to test the pointer and to set all up and I don't have to link against the Carbon framework. If I did, I'd drop 32-bit in a second. But, I'm still supporting 10.6 32/64 bit and XP 32/64 bit and I'm going to hold out as long as it's possible. I'm sure Apple is going to start putting their ARMs into laptops at some point, so the new Universal will be Intel/ARM. At that point, I'll freeze the 32-bit version and soldier on. I can certainly understand devs selling plugs dropping support for older OS versions. I'm sure they've looked at the cost of development and support vs revenue losses and gains.

That's odd about your video card not being supported. Is it due to supported OGL version, ability to run Metal, or?

v1o
KVRAF
1991 posts since 2 Oct, 2004

Re: 32 bit windows plugins dropped because of Mac Catalina?

Post Mon Nov 18, 2019 6:12 pm

Why are you sticking to 32bit Windows? The only issue here is your reluctance to change.
Orion Platinum, Muzys 2

earlevel
KVRist
499 posts since 4 Apr, 2010

Re: 32 bit windows plugins dropped because of Mac Catalina?

Post Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:06 pm

syntonica wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:16 pm
[Blender] That's odd about your video card not being supported. Is it due to supported OGL version, ability to run Metal, or?
In a nutshell, they are supporting video cards of the last 10 years. They support Nvidia GeForce 200 series ("Nvidia GPUs released in the last 10 years"), but not the 120 on the early 2009 Mac Pro. Here's a related note on the Mac OS version requirements:
macOS 10.12 or newer is supported, and Mac hardware from the last 10 years appear to be working. Older macOS versions have bugs in the OpenGL drivers that cause problems for Eevee, and the only way to upgrade the drivers is to upgrade the operating system as a whole.
Of course, upgrading to Sierra then High Sierra required the 5,1 firmware hack, and beyond that I need to change video cards. (But I'm just holding out for the new Mac Pro.)
My audio DSP blog: earlevel.com

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Russell Grand
KVRAF
2158 posts since 22 May, 2017

Re: 32 bit windows plugins dropped because of Mac Catalina?

Post Mon Nov 18, 2019 8:19 pm

v1o wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 6:12 pm
Why are you sticking to 32bit Windows? The only issue here is your reluctance to change.
:roll:

mabian
KVRAF
1627 posts since 10 Jan, 2005

Re: 32 bit windows plugins dropped because of Mac Catalina?

Post Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:48 pm

v1o wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 6:12 pm
Why are you sticking to 32bit Windows? The only issue here is your reluctance to change.
Several projects to be finished that are using 32 bit plugins (NOT Windows, PLUGINS, I've been on 64 bit Windows for years already) that won't probably load the 64 bit equivalent of the plugins? Isn't it enough?

I would think of doing it if there was a reallly valid reason. There is one quite debatable, but apparently undeniable, if you are on Mac, but on Windows I cannot find any now, other than making the software maintenance easier for devs.

- Mario

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Vokbuz
KVRist
117 posts since 24 Aug, 2014 from Moscow

Re: 32 bit windows plugins dropped because of Mac Catalina?

Post Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:27 pm

mabian wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:48 pm
Several projects to be finished that are using 32 bit plugins (NOT Windows, PLUGINS, I've been on 64 bit Windows for years already) that won't probably load the 64 bit equivalent of the plugins? Isn't it enough?
Did you start those projects 10 years ago?

mabian
KVRAF
1627 posts since 10 Jan, 2005

Re: 32 bit windows plugins dropped because of Mac Catalina?

Post Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:15 am

Why does it matter? Whenever I started them I used 32 bit versions...

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Vokbuz
KVRist
117 posts since 24 Aug, 2014 from Moscow

Re: 32 bit windows plugins dropped because of Mac Catalina?

Post Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:47 am

mabian wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:15 am
Why does it matter? Whenever I started them I used 32 bit versions...
If you started them 10 years ago, there were no other (or few other) alternatives to 32bit plugins. If you started them yesterday, you had a whole market of 64bit plugins, 32bits are rare beasts. It is time to move on.

mabian
KVRAF
1627 posts since 10 Jan, 2005

Re: 32 bit windows plugins dropped because of Mac Catalina?

Post Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:14 am

Vokbuz wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:47 am
mabian wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:15 am
Why does it matter? Whenever I started them I used 32 bit versions...
If you started them 10 years ago, there were no other (or few other) alternatives to 32bit plugins. If you started them yesterday, you had a whole market of 64bit plugins, 32bits are rare beasts. It is time to move on.
Not relevant at all... I was free to choose, I went for 32 bit DAW and plugins because a few years ago 64 bit plugins on Windows were a complete mess (unstable, many weren't even there etc.), the stable side was the best option for me. So why not ditching completely VST2 and go VST3? No, thanks.
I still don't see why a Mac only problem should affect Windows.

- Mario

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Vokbuz
KVRist
117 posts since 24 Aug, 2014 from Moscow

Re: 32 bit windows plugins dropped because of Mac Catalina?

Post Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:27 am

mabian wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:14 am
So why not ditching completely VST2 and go VST3?
Did you know that Steinberg actually did it? VST2 SDK is not available to developers anymore.

mabian
KVRAF
1627 posts since 10 Jan, 2005

Re: 32 bit windows plugins dropped because of Mac Catalina?

Post Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:41 am

Vokbuz wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:27 am
mabian wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:14 am
So why not ditching completely VST2 and go VST3?
Did you know that Steinberg actually did it? VST2 SDK is not available to developers anymore.
I know. But not all daws still support VST3 AND some plugins do not have VST3 versions (Variety Of Sound to say one...); I'll move, I know, but I don't like at all the way.

- Mario

v1o
KVRAF
1991 posts since 2 Oct, 2004

Re: 32 bit windows plugins dropped because of Mac Catalina?

Post Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:16 am

mabian wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 2:14 am
Vokbuz wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:47 am
mabian wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 12:15 am
Why does it matter? Whenever I started them I used 32 bit versions...
If you started them 10 years ago, there were no other (or few other) alternatives to 32bit plugins. If you started them yesterday, you had a whole market of 64bit plugins, 32bits are rare beasts. It is time to move on.
Not relevant at all... I was free to choose, I went for 32 bit DAW and plugins because a few years ago 64 bit plugins on Windows were a complete mess (unstable, many weren't even there etc.), the stable side was the best option for me. So why not ditching completely VST2 and go VST3? No, thanks.
I still don't see why a Mac only problem should affect Windows.

- Mario
If you choose to stick to 32 bit. You should also stick to legacy versions of commercial plugins. Most of the industry has migrated to 64 bit. There is no reason for developers to continue to support 32 bit plug-ins if it doesn't make commercial sense for their business.

What you're doing is akin to driving a fuel inefficient vintage car in 2019. Maintaining it and insuring it becomes ever more expensive as the years go by.
Orion Platinum, Muzys 2

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syntonica
KVRian
545 posts since 25 Sep, 2014 from Specific Northwest

Re: 32 bit windows plugins dropped because of Mac Catalina?

Post Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:16 am

Vokbuz wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:27 pm
mabian wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:48 pm
Several projects to be finished that are using 32 bit plugins (NOT Windows, PLUGINS, I've been on 64 bit Windows for years already) that won't probably load the 64 bit equivalent of the plugins? Isn't it enough?
Did you start those projects 10 years ago?
Yes.

I have dozens of tests, playgrounds, loops and songs that were started more than 10 years ago that I'd like to be able to still open up and mine. While most plugins I have have been updated to 64-bit, not all have been. While most of the 32-bit only ones have replacements waiting in the wings to step in, not all. This is especially true of effects that I've exploited for their particular sound. That's why my current computer on Mojave will not go to Catalina, ever. It has to support projects going back to Logic 5, which is a total pain unto itself. Fortunately, my backup MacBook Pro runs Snow Leopard, Mavericks and High Sierra! I also have a G4 iBook for 10.4 and an older PowerBook for OS 7, 8, and 9. Yes, there is some crucial software that requires Classic.

FigBug
KVRist
402 posts since 3 May, 2005 from Victoria, BC

Re: 32 bit windows plugins dropped because of Mac Catalina?

Post Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:36 pm

32 bit is dead. On MacOS it means using Xcode 9 (11 is the current version) and keeping an old OS around for testing. On Windows it means using VS2017 or earlier if you want to support XP, the last 32 bit only OS. As new C++ versions come out, devs are going to want to use those features. They don't want to be stuck using old tools to support a handful of users. As projects get updated on the mac side, they will probably get updated on the Windows side as well, and that means no more 32 bit.

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