New ExpressiveE instrument: Osmose

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BONES
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9073 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Post Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:09 pm

No, I haven't, which is why I was keen to hear from Urs, who has. But you can see from the demos that a normal piano playing style doesn't work, they even show the difference by turning all the fancy stuff off.
EvilDragon wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 3:48 pm
No it's not bullshit, it's facts - and yes it's necessary. Continuum for example scans much faster than Seaboard, hence it provides a LOT more detail for the attack phase of the note (where Roli just does initial velocity, which is nothing impressive, and is in fact making certain articulations you can do on Continuum and Osmose impossible on the Roli).
See, I was right, it is technical bullshit because what you just said is wrong. The "attack phase of the note" is determined by the instrument setting and has very little to do with the keyboard, beyond sending a consistent STRIKE/Velocity value, along with continuous PRESS values, which a Seaboard does extremely well.
Which is why I posted a link where you can see some comparisons in the data stream produced between the two.
This is the very definition of technical bullshit. I don't buy instruments to compare data streams, I but them to play music.
I've played on both and this is correct - you cannot shape the attack of the note on Roli in the way you can on Continuum.
Of course you can, especially if you are using each to play the same instrument. It's all down to modulation routing in the patch.
The rest of your post is just shit coming out of your keyboard so it's not worth commenting on. :)
Which is to say you got nothin' but you are too pig-headed and obstinate to say so. Pathetic.
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Klinke
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160 posts since 24 Dec, 2009 from Berlin

Re: New ExpressiveE instrument teaser

Post Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:34 pm

BONES wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:09 pm
No, I haven't, which is why I was keen to hear from Urs, who has. But you can see from the demos that a normal piano playing style doesn't work, they even show the difference by turning all the fancy stuff off.
Can you explain to me, why you think that their demonstration for the piano mode at the beginning of this "Using Osmose as MIDI controller" shows, that the piano playing style doesn't work?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJtBCyY0Isc

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Dirtgrain
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357 posts since 12 Jan, 2019

Re: New ExpressiveE instrument: Osmose

Post Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:55 pm

I recall reading about early Roli boards being hit or miss for quality. I realize it is hard to say without more knowledge about the mechanisms making the Osmose function, but does anyone have any insight on the reputation of the company making Osmose? If so, how would anticipate its quality control and customer service being?

Also, would this be fine as one's only midi keyboard (excepting not having more keys)? Any scenarios where one would want a typical midi keyboard over the Osmose?

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pdxindy
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16116 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Re: New ExpressiveE instrument teaser

Post Thu Nov 21, 2019 6:11 pm

BONES wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:09 pm

See, I was right, it is technical bullshit because what you just said is wrong. The "attack phase of the note" is determined by the instrument setting and has very little to do with the keyboard, beyond sending a consistent STRIKE/Velocity value, along with continuous PRESS values, which a Seaboard does extremely well.
That is usually correct... but not how it works on the Hakeem Continuum.

On the Continuum, the attack phase is determined by how you play the note. In this regard it’s different than other controllers and their synth presets are constructed accordingly.

The Osmose has a mode that functions like the Continuum. It can also function as a regular controller.

Echoes in the Attic
KVRAF
7317 posts since 12 May, 2008

Re: New ExpressiveE instrument: Osmose

Post Thu Nov 21, 2019 6:14 pm

Dirtgrain wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:55 pm
I recall reading about early Roli boards being hit or miss for quality. I realize it is hard to say without more knowledge about the mechanisms making the Osmose function, but does anyone have any insight on the reputation of the company making Osmose? If so, how would anticipate its quality control and customer service being?
I have a Touche and it's excellent quality. They have a good reputation so far.
Also, would this be fine as one's only midi keyboard (excepting not having more keys)? Any scenarios where one would want a typical midi keyboard over the Osmose?
Not many here have played but the available information so far seems to indicate that it can be played like a normal keybaord and feel pretty much the same. But we can't speak from experience. price would be the main factor aside from only 4 octaves I guess.
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BONES
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9073 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Re: New ExpressiveE instrument teaser

Post Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:58 pm

Klinke wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:34 pm
Can you explain to me, why you think that their demonstration for the piano mode at the beginning of this "Using Osmose as MIDI controller" shows, that the piano playing style doesn't work?
Because it's a separate mode that ignores all the expressivity of using it the way it is meant to be used. That's what I was saying, if you want to take advantage of all its special features, you'll need to learn to play it with a different technique. Seaboards are the same, they have a normal MIDI mode so you can use them as a standard MIDI controller, as well as MPE mode that unlocks the 5 dimensions of touch.
pdxindy wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 6:11 pm
On the Continuum, the attack phase is determined by how you play the note.
You mean velocity modulation of the attack time? That's been around for as long as velocity sensitivity has. I use it on string patches all the time and I don't even need MPE for it. On a Seaboard I could even use my finger position on the key wave to modulate envelope attack.
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Echoes in the Attic
KVRAF
7317 posts since 12 May, 2008

Re: New ExpressiveE instrument teaser

Post Thu Nov 21, 2019 8:28 pm

BONES wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 7:58 pm
pdxindy wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 6:11 pm
On the Continuum, the attack phase is determined by how you play the note.
You mean velocity modulation of the attack time? That's been around for as long as velocity sensitivity has. I use it on string patches all the time and I don't even need MPE for it. On a Seaboard I could even use my finger position on the key wave to modulate envelope attack.
I'm no expert but based on the videos of this and the continuum I really think you are missing something about the different way these can handle the initial attack phase of a sound, which is clearly not a single velocity value but a very high resolution stream of data over time right at the start of a note. This would clearly have capabilities to better emulate real world physical contact of material I'm guessing. And do some synthetic equivalents of that.

If you browse over the MPE+ page you might get an idea about the extra expressiveness they are focused on. Or maybe it will be just technical jargon to you I don't know. But the proof will be in the pudding once people can play it.

That being said from what I know so far I'd probably still chose the Rise if I could just have one. I'd miss the independent Y axis movement.
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BONES
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9073 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Re: New ExpressiveE instrument: Osmose

Post Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:05 pm

I'd just miss the squidginess of it. I absolutely love playing my Seaboard, way more than anything else I've ever used. Especially when it's mated to a Lightpad Block M. And you're right, technical bullshit doesn't interest me, I want to hear from someone who has played them all side-by-side.
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EvilDragon
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19002 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia

Re: New ExpressiveE instrument: Osmose

Post Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:01 pm

Well I did play both Continuum on Superbooth this year, while I already have experience with Rise 49, having owned it months before that (and Osmose is now on pre-order). Continuum is definitely more responsive because it doesn't rely on the synth's envelope to create the attack of the note - it responds like an acoustic instrument in this regard. You can change the attack curve during the attack phase in a way you just cannot do with a single static velocity value, or velocity modulating attack time. It just intuitively responds to how you play it. Some stuff you can do on Continuum is definitely above Roli's league. But instead of cluelessly bitching about it, go find one and play it, spend some time with it, this is the only way you can understand.

Whywhy
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463 posts since 11 Aug, 2018

Re: New ExpressiveE instrument: Osmose

Post Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:46 pm

@ Echoes in the attic: Osmose : the Y will be the poly aftertouch ( after the initial continuous pressure)
@Ed & Bones: we need to distinct 2 things :
Sound played with the internal eaganmatrix or with an external instrument. : the internal continuum sound engine, the EM, is low latency and works with high resolution CC.
The continuum and the eaganmatrix are made for working together.
Second thing, if you play with a Seaboard or a Continuum , an external instrument, his interpretation of the mpe cc is important:
How the synth smooth the midi cc, different algorithms give different results same for cc curves.
If you don't use any velocity message, just mod the volume with Z, press, the Seaboard can give a fast attack but due to the resolution of his sensor, the amount of information is limited compare to a Continuum. Same for the glide, x.
The important thing about the Haken vs Roli is the concept: one is a continuous surface, if you hit a note, the start of the note is not a fixed midi note, you have an offset, your fingers position, the other is a piano layout with expression.
People compare the 2 company, but nobody compare a piano with a violin...and the 2 instruments use strings !

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qoyl
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266 posts since 17 Jul, 2015

Re: New ExpressiveE instrument: Osmose

Post Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:05 am

BONES wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:05 pm
I'd just miss the squidginess of it. I absolutely love playing my Seaboard, way more than anything else I've ever used. Especially when it's mated to a Lightpad Block M. And you're right, technical bullshit doesn't interest me, I want to hear from someone who has played them all side-by-side.
I couldn't stand the Roli for that exact reason! Nice to have options for different playing preferences.

SLiC
KVRAF
4243 posts since 2 Dec, 2004 from North Wales

Re: New ExpressiveE instrument: Osmose

Post Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:14 am

I have the ROLI stuff (board and block) and a senseless morph - both are a relatively inexpensive way to get in to MPE. Personally I find the seaboard block a bit too small to play comfortably and I am not a fan of the all black layout so I will probably sell it when I get the Osmose...I really wanted full size black and white keys! I’ll keep the morph as I use it for making my own control layouts with the designer kit...currently have a hang drum layout on it :-)

I will also keep my touché as i use it CV controller quite a bit, and it doesn’t look like Osmose has CV out. It was partly the build quality, look, feel and ‘smile factor’ of the touché that influenced me to put a deposit down....

It seems a bit strange that people, are arguing about if a tiny midi 'controller' is better that a fully blown synth (that can also act as a controller). Unless 'being small' is your main criteria for section, there is no comparison. This is a fully fledged 24 note poly 'synth' with spits and layers (that was selling for $5000 before) designed for MPE from the ground up. I guess that may not be of interest if you are totally ITB, but its the same process as some 49 key ' MPE midi controllers.

This is a good video of the actual synth engine (although I prefer the Osmose way of triggering the engine for the reasons I gave previously, but its essentially the same 'synth' believe)....

https://youtu.be/HkYVJ_agLko
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Pashkuli
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155 posts since 9 Sep, 2019

Re: New ExpressiveE instrument: Osmose

Post Fri Nov 22, 2019 4:55 am

SLiC wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:14 am
I have the ROLI stuff (board and block) and a Senseless Morph - both are a relatively inexpensive way to get in to MPE.
Senseless Morph... :D
Was that intentional or a typo? Very funny, though!

Interesting discussion so far.
Of course Osmose is different and won't feel like a normal piano keyboard and would require adaptation and time to get used to its way of triggering sound.
I would assume that Osmose is based on Haken hardware (thus Hall sensor) although they might be placed slightly differently (I do not know, but definitely will disassemble one to see).
Anyway... 90% of the sounds and tweaks you hear are based on Software.
I am still waiting for detailed reference demo-video with regards to Pitch Bend (range and implementation). I assume it is software based. But let's not speculate.

Everything else is pretty much just sound engine with the brilliant EaganMatrix. But we all know that Edmund Eagan and Lippold Haken are great minds in music wizardry.

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BONES
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9073 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Re: New ExpressiveE instrument: Osmose

Post Fri Nov 22, 2019 5:16 am

EvilDragon wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:01 pm
But instead of cluelessly bitching about it, go find one and play it, spend some time with it, this is the only way you can understand.
There is nowhere in Australia, as far as I know, where you can buy a Continuum so there is zero chance of my getting to play with one. But skipping through a few vids on YT doesn't reveal anyone noticing anything special about the way Continuum lets you control the attack. I probably watched 6 or 7 videos and it didn't seem to come up even once. That's kind of why I see your point as "technical bullshit" - until someone explains to you that it's there, you don't even realise that it is. Remember, too, that you can buy three Seaboard Blocks for the pre-order price of one of these things and have 72 keys of 5D touch. Or 4 x Seaboard Rises for the price of the smaller of the two big Continuums. I also didn't see any mention of LIFT on Continuum, is it even supported? If not then Continuum is down two dimensions on Seaboard, making it 40% less useful (or 20% less useful if it's only missing SLIDE).
Whywhy wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 11:46 pm
The important thing about the Haken vs Roli is the concept: one is a continuous surface, if you hit a note, the start of the note is not a fixed midi note, you have an offset, your fingers position, the other is a piano layout with expression.
Incorrect. By default the Seaboard is a continuous surface and if you don't hit a keywave precisely in the centre, you wont get the right note. You need to adjust the GLIDE sensitivity to get it to sound discrete notes. The trick is to leave enough in there for vibrato but not so much that you have to be too precise in your placement.
SLiC wrote:
Fri Nov 22, 2019 12:14 am
It seems a bit strange that people, are arguing about if a tiny midi 'controller' is better that a fully blown synth (that can also act as a controller).
Those kinds of distinctions are irrelevant in the face of all the software that comes with your Roli purchase.
Unless 'being small' is your main criteria for section, there is no comparison.
Except that for the pre-order price of Osmose you could have 72 keys of Seaboard Block, which would not be so small. i.e. Roli has expandability on its side.
This is a fully fledged 24 note poly 'synth' with spits and layers (that was selling for $5000 before) designed for MPE from the ground up.
So a lot more restricted than Roli's Equator, then?
This is a good video of the actual synth engine (although I prefer the Osmose way of triggering the engine for the reasons I gave previously, but its essentially the same 'synth' believe)....
Yeah, I've seen it and it didn't seem to have any useful advantage to me to justify the price. Ozmose also seems eye-wateringly expensive. It will be interesting to see how it goes, given that Roli couldn't sell their all-in-one Seaboard Grand at those kinds of prices and discontinued it.
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EvilDragon
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19002 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia

Re: New ExpressiveE instrument: Osmose

Post Fri Nov 22, 2019 5:22 am

Continuum does have lift/release velocity as well, IIRC. It is basically "alwaystouch", but more precise than Roli's. It also of course does slide, with better precision than Roli (21-bit pitch bend, because it has bend range of 96 semitones, 2x more than Roli).

Yeah you can buy more Seaboard Blocks and stick them together but you cannot glide across them :)

Also, as a synthesis engine, EaganMatrix does more things than Equator.

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