New ExpressiveE instrument: Osmose

[pdxindy]

On the Continuum, the attack phase is determined by how you play the note.

You mean velocity modulation of the attack time? That's been around for as long as velocity sensitivity has. I use it on string patches all the time and I don't even need MPE for it. On a Seaboard I could even use my finger position on the key wave to modulate envelope attack.

On the Continuum it’s not using velocity and it is not triggering an envelope to shape the level of the sound. Your finger creates the envelope by how you play it (pressure). It’s Especially more flexible in the initial milliseconds compared to the fixed (in time) velocity value and clumsy transition to pressure of the usual method. The Continuum surface is far more precise in its response to pressure.

It has its pluses and minuses. The Osmose looks like an improvement over the Continuum surface to me... judging by the videos.

[SLiC]

It seems a bit strange that people, are arguing about if a tiny midi 'controller' is better that a fully blown synth (that can also act as a controller).

Those kinds of distinctions are irrelevant in the face of all the software that comes with your Roli purchase.

OK, so you are saying there is no point to having a hardware synth at all, being tethered to a computer with virtual instruments is all thats ever needed and a powerful hardware synth engine that has been designed from the ground up for MPE is pointless...(I wonder why own hardware synth and in other threads try to convince people there is a benefit in hardware synths?)

Overpriced? I will pay £800 for the Osmose (actually, quite a bit less as I dont pay VAT). Thats less than the cost of joining 3 Roli Seaboard Blocks together and if you did that you will still have 'mini keys' (just more of them) which is what I dont like. Obviusly you also dont get a powerful hardware synths either, but you dont think hardware synths are having do you...(What did you pay for your Electron Analog Keys?)

PS- I though the software that came with Roli was very average (even Cypher), I use my Roli with Falcon and Omnisphere 2 predominately. Do you want to buy my Roli, I doint need it anymore

[Pashkuli]

Do you want to buy my Roli, I doint need it anymore

I sold mine 3~4 years ago. It has nice functionality with Y-glides, and although those could be assigned for semi-proper Pitch Bend, I found it quite difficult to use more than 2... if I am really concentrated and under slow tempo max. 3 polyphonic changes at a time. For more than that, the human hand is not capable of controlling the modulation properly.
But that is all software features or implementations. Linear grid instruments rely heavily on software algorithms (recognition) to an active spot on the surface.

[EvilDragon]

I found it quite difficult to use more than 2... if I am really concentrated and under slow tempo max.

But you're not a keyboard player, by your own admission, so...

This stuff can be practiced.

[SLiC]

I found it quite difficult to use more than 2... if I am really concentrated and under slow tempo max.

But you're not a keyboard player, by your own admission, so...

This stuff can be practiced.

I have to agree with Pashkuli, I wouldn't say I am a keyboard player either (I am a reasonable guitarist and have been dabbling with keyboards for 20 years…) but as I have quite a few synths (and a piano!) and I have got use to the normal 'spacing' as muscle memory (especially for my left hand, walking bass lines or just hitting 3rd and 5th) so mini keys are far more difficult for me to play even witout MPE and I don't particularly want to build up muscle memory on mini keys (not that I practice much anyway )

[Echoes in the Attic]

@ Echoes in the attic: Osmose : the Y will be the poly aftertouch ( after the initial continuous pressure)

But the problem there is that it is not independent of the initial pressure in that you can do modulate it without going through the initial pressure fully first, whereas with y axis on a rise you can without too much pressure. And on a rise you can also have a modulation for the first half of the depth curve and another one for the second half by using different curves if the software supports it, like Equator. Doesn't mean the physical response will be the same of course. But I like the Y axis modulation being actually on the Y axis with an up and down motion. It's a shame not to make use of that physical range on the keys. Touch keys did it with sensors years ago, too bad Osmose didn't.

And by the way, I had a seaboard block for about a month before I sold it. They are just too small. You gotta have small hands to use those comfortably except for really simple things.

[Echoes in the Attic]

It seems a bit strange that people, are arguing about if a tiny midi 'controller' is better that a fully blown synth (that can also act as a controller).

I agree with that. You can't compare a seaboard block with a full synth. First of all the block is a fun little toy thing. The miniature keys aren't great for normal sized hands.Full Rise 49 is a different story I think. But of course still no internal engine. I personally am all in the box but obviously a dedicated synth in the keyboard is valuable to many people. And yeah, including a free plugin isn't really the same, even though that;s what I would prefer.

[himalaya]

Full Rise 49 is a different story I think. But of course still no internal engine.

The Seaboard GRAND had a full on-board, internal synth engine.

[EvilDragon]

It's also discontinued (and has one dimension less).

[himalaya]

Of course, I said "it had". And it had two dimensions less than the RISE (no LIFT). Although, it was capable of supporting it later on (even so, no presets were made to support it even at the later stages)

[EvilDragon]

Ah, thought it was "has" there, not "had". Sorry

[Pashkuli]

The Grand was way too expensive (grid size and the cost of making it - not as a mass production raises the cost × times). It is a matter of firmware to support the Lift, Touch, Strike or whatever - software implementation with regards to the active zone, etc. Back then it was not developed.

I was curious to see if Osmose got the Y-glide functionality. Not that crucial, but still nice to have, like Seaboard or Touchkeys.
I suggested to the guys to make collaboration with Andrew McPherson (Touchkeys). Andrew has a great mind for music tech.
It will be really nice to see all that functionality in one instrument for standard piano keyboard format - would be more approachable to the average keyboard player.

P.S. I still believe that making it with some hardware trickery and non-flat design for each key (*cough*) can give us some simpler implementation. I can suggest a design for the standard piano keyboard to Osmose absolutely free of charge but they will be too over-hyped now with the launch than looking at something else.

[JCJR]

I am "wait and see" as I don't fully utilize instruments already owned.

But on the "piano mode" it would just seem a matter of software/firmware defining a piano mode or many other possible modes. Given a fine-grained z axis sensing (which it apparently has) then a piano mode would just be a "more accurate" extrapolation of two-switch or three-switch keyboards.

Two switch keyboard calcs velocity based on time difference between two switch closures. Three switch could have various firmware. The three sensor boards do seem to have better velocity response, but there could be various ways to interpret velocity either based on time between switch 1 and 2, or a combination of timings between 1, 2, and 3. Some keyboards can apparently just use 1 and 2 as an early-trigger "organ mode" as the fast-triggering of hammond keyboards.

Just saying, if you are scanning real fast and have high-res z (up and down) position sensing, all you have to do to emulate 2 switch, or 3 switch, or n-switch velocity sensing is to set up z threshold numbers equivalent to the conventional switch closure depths, and measure timing between the key passing those "switch closure thresholds".

I'd be curious if the feel of the thing can be made "squishy" enough to give a good tactile feedback for pressure-mode playing, without making the keyboard too stiff for me to ever get comfortable with for piano- or synth- or organ-style playing. Which would be more a comment on my own preferences and limitations than any objective measure whether the keyboard feels objectively good or bad for piano, conventional synth, or organ playing.

Two examples-- Some years ago bought a 61 key Korg Kronos but my particular unit had an intermittent crashing issue so I sent it back after a couple of weeks and was too discouraged to try another one. But that Kronos style of spring-loaded keyboard was too stiff for my taste. I didn't expect to get comfortable with such a keyboard playing piano, was expecting to use weighted 88 for that, but it wasn't very much fun to play either for piano, synth or organ. It was too stiff and simultaneously too springy to make me happy playing it. Too much "constant spring resistance" all the way down. If I had kept the kronos maybe would have eventually got used to the stiff synth keybed but I've been put off by such stiff spring keyboards in the past so maybe would never have got to where I liked it.

A second example, maybe not all electronic classical organs have real stiff springy keyboards, but the ones I've played seemed thataway. A classical player with strong fingers and good technique probably likes that because if you have to sweat to mash the keys down then they probably pop up real fast on release so you can play the fast intricate classical passages at warp speed without the keys slowing you down by being "sluggish" popping back up when released? But I never liked that feel and probably would have to take a long time if ever to get comfortable playing that feel.

Am not saying bad about this keyboard. It looks real nice. I especially like that they have a nice long hinge point for the keys, which usually equates to helping even out response of white vs black keys, and response of the keys depending on where you happen to have to touch them with fingers to get decent fingering on a passage. I would hope that the release versions ship with a cover over the rear skirt, to keep cookie crumbs, beer and cat hair from going down inside the back of the mechanism.

Am just saying that maybe if it happens to be made "squishy" enough to offer good tactile feedback in pressure mode, that it might be impossible at least for me to get used to playing it in a piano or organ mode. But thats no big deal. I've already got keyboards that work good enough for piano or organ modes, and it is doubtful I'd fork over $1800 for a 4 octave conventional controller. If I would get one, it would be for the pressure mode alone. Unless by lucky accident it turns out not to have a supremely stiff annoying springy feel for conventional playing.

[Klinke]

Can you explain to me, why you think that their demonstration for the piano mode at the beginning of this "Using Osmose as MIDI controller" shows, that the piano playing style doesn't work?

Because it's a separate mode that ignores all the expressivity of using it the way it is meant to be used. That's what I was saying, if you want to take advantage of all its special features, you'll need to learn to play it with a different technique.

That statement is so banal, no wonder I didn't get your message. Actually you have to "learn to play" with every preset to get the best out of it.

When you play guitar, you have to practice techniques like bending. In this picture Osmose keeps at least a guitar with strings, but the Seaboard would be a guitar without strings and with a smooth surface instead. Which has it's own advantages, like allowing sliding too, and not just bending.

I find the comparison more like one between apples and oranges anyway, they have really different strength. But one advantage of Osmose is certainly that for keyboarders it's the easiest transition from a simple keyboard to a much more expressive interface.

[Whywhy]

@ Echoes in the attic: Osmose : the Y will be the poly aftertouch ( after the initial continuous pressure)

But the problem there is that it is not independent of the initial pressure in that you can do modulate it without going through the initial pressure fully first, whereas with y axis on a rise you can without too much pressure. And on a rise you can also have a modulation for the first half of the depth curve and another one for the second half by using different curves if the software supports it, like Equator. Doesn't mean the physical response will be the same of course. But I like the Y axis modulation being actually on the Y axis with an up and down motion. It's a shame not to make use of that physical range on the keys. Touch keys did it with sensors years ago, too bad Osmose didn't.

You're right!