Limiters

VST, AU, etc. plug-in Virtual Effects discussion
Izak Synthiemental
KVRian
774 posts since 4 Aug, 2010

Post Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:51 am

Vortifex wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:15 am
Yes, the latest version, with oversampling. I just cannot get it to be as transparent as Limiter 6 or Barricade 4. Maybe I'm doing something wrong.
Here is what you could do for a test: set up Limited-Z to do the amount of gain reduction that you want to have. Select one of the modes in the selection menu, for transparent style limiting try "Smooth", "Limited 2" or "Clean". You say it's breaking at some point, so make sure to stay within a reasonable range. Have oversampling engaged (4x should be fine). Now play with the x/y controls to refine the character of limiting to your liking. The different settings in the x/y control are basically different combinations of attack and release settings (fast attack / fast release, fast attack / slow release, slow attack / fast release etcetera) which you can also blend. So somehwere in the x/y field there should be a setting which suits your material. Make small adjustments to the setting.

Now compare the amount and quality of limiting you get with the others you mentioned.

Obviously, there still might be differences. For example the Tokyo Dawn Labs Limiter 6 has additional modules. To make a fair comparison you would actually have to use a mastering compressor in front of Limited-Z, since Limiter 6 has a mastering compressor on board. Obviously a pre-compressed signal is much less of a challenge for the actual limiting stage, than a highly dynamic signal. You could actually use Tokyo Dawn's Kotelnikov in front of Limited-Z if you want to compare Limited-Zs performance with TDL Limiter 6 with the engaged compression module.

Even if the actual limiting algorithm of Limited-Z indeed started "breaking up" earlier, I doubt that this would be in the range of multiple dbs difference in gain reduction. It's more likely that either Limited-Z is not set up correctly or there are crucial procession elements missing in the mastering chain before the limiter (eg buss compression).

Also, there is the general issue of people wanting "hard limiting" (squashed, punchy sound) and at the same time they want it to sound transparent. Those two characteristics actually mutually exclude one another. I mean, yes, there are differences in the way different compressors / limiters squash and saturate a sound source and one can sound better than the other or get louder. But generally, squashed / punchy sound is the opposite of "natural" and "transparent".
http://soundcloud.com/samaritageto

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adl
KVRian
1144 posts since 26 Jun, 2005

Re: Limiters

Post Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:55 am

I personally get good results with following combination on the Masterbus doing Trap music:
-Limiter (Pro-L2) limiting 3-4 dB just the kick (everything else muted)

-Clipper (StandartClip) doing around 3dB clipping in Softclip mode

-Limiter (Pro-L2) doing the final 1dB of limiting.

I tried with only Clipping before Limiter (and also Clipping only after the Limiter), but found that using first Limiter, then Clipper, then final Limiter to give me the nicest crunch I was after for quite some time.
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Izak Synthiemental
KVRian
774 posts since 4 Aug, 2010

Re: Limiters

Post Sun Dec 01, 2019 4:03 am

LeVzi wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 2:59 am

The source material is indeed drums, it's a heavily (HEAVILY) distorted kick literally run white hot, and tbh compression isn't helping really, kinda over emphasising the distortion and losing too many transients, and then I want it to be LOUD, but not totally squashed. Tried a few chains on the master, compression , transient booster then limiter, or compression on the punch and just run the channels hot into the limiter which gave the clearest results, but I am getting a more dull / flat lifeless result.
Neither a limiter, compressor or clipper will solve this issue. Your drums are already overcompressed and oversaturated, since this is probably the sound you were aiming for. But putting another layer of compression on it, which will dial reduce the dynamics even more is not a solution. Basically, this is an issue that belongs into the "mixing" category. You need to dial back the compression and saturation a bit and simply turn down the volume of your (kick?) drum in the overall mix. If they are not cutting through in the mix, you need to address this by fine-tuning with the other elements in your mix. Reduce frequency overlaps between kick drum and bass or other instruments. Make sure that not too many instruments are playing in the same octave / register at the same time, use some side-chaining between the signals, use some dynamic eqing etc... A limiter is not a one-stop solution to all problems in the mix, you have to actually solve those in the mix itself, not on the mastering stereo buss!
http://soundcloud.com/samaritageto

Proper Education Always Corrects Errors

Michey
KVRer
17 posts since 24 Sep, 2019

Re: Limiters

Post Sun Dec 01, 2019 6:07 am

Try the following:
Set your drums to hit roughly -12dB PEAK
Place one [DMG Audio] TrackControl
Place one [Airwindows] Fracture
Place one [Airwindowd] BitShiftGain

Set BitShiftGain to [-2] which is: [-12dB gain]
Set Fracture output gain @ [-12dB]. Place input drive slider AND Fracture slider EXACTLY above the output gain [ie. They prefectly align]
Listen.
If in need, trim the input into fracture

Enjoy.

You can further limit with whatever you like.

heavymetalmixer
KVRian
542 posts since 8 Jan, 2017

Re: Limiters

Post Sun Dec 01, 2019 6:12 am

If it's for working hard, maybe Loudmax could be your choice: https://loudmax.blogspot.com/

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LeVzi
KVRAF
2178 posts since 8 Jul, 2008 from UK

Re: Limiters

Post Sun Dec 01, 2019 7:49 am

Izak Synthiemental wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 4:03 am
LeVzi wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 2:59 am

The source material is indeed drums, it's a heavily (HEAVILY) distorted kick literally run white hot, and tbh compression isn't helping really, kinda over emphasising the distortion and losing too many transients, and then I want it to be LOUD, but not totally squashed. Tried a few chains on the master, compression , transient booster then limiter, or compression on the punch and just run the channels hot into the limiter which gave the clearest results, but I am getting a more dull / flat lifeless result.
Neither a limiter, compressor or clipper will solve this issue. Your drums are already overcompressed and oversaturated, since this is probably the sound you were aiming for. But putting another layer of compression on it, which will dial reduce the dynamics even more is not a solution. Basically, this is an issue that belongs into the "mixing" category. You need to dial back the compression and saturation a bit and simply turn down the volume of your (kick?) drum in the overall mix. If they are not cutting through in the mix, you need to address this by fine-tuning with the other elements in your mix. Reduce frequency overlaps between kick drum and bass or other instruments. Make sure that not too many instruments are playing in the same octave / register at the same time, use some side-chaining between the signals, use some dynamic eqing etc... A limiter is not a one-stop solution to all problems in the mix, you have to actually solve those in the mix itself, not on the mastering stereo buss!
Getting the kick to sit right in the mix is the easy bit, this isn't in a track ,I am talking about a whole project doing 1 thing, making a kick and exporting it.

There are roughly 6 layers to a kick, each doing a different thing, some are very VERY disorted and running hot to get the desired sound, and obviously big transients are needed for punch and power in a kick, so when you combine the 6 (for example 6, might less) you get a kick that's running well over 0 but the layers sit well together, so you need to export the kick ready for the track, now I don't want to squash it to bits, or limit it so it distorts, but I need to bring it under control. So far what i've got is usable but not perfect, and I can see a brickwall limiter isn't ideal.

But the little by little approach might work, and i've not tried clipping it before limiting or after. So I have plenty to experiment with. How these rawstyle producers seem to nail this so easily is a mystery to me, its really baffled me since day 1.
Forward ever, Backward never

Izak Synthiemental
KVRian
774 posts since 4 Aug, 2010

Re: Limiters

Post Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:06 am

Wow, so you layer 6 different samples to create one kick? That's a really challenging sound design endeavor! Are you mixing all the layers individually and then sum them into a buss or what is your approach? I'm really curious!

I guess there are lots of factors coming in when you try to create one coherent sound from so many different samples: the sounds might cancel one another partially out, there might be phase issues that need to corrected, you might create unwanted resonances that need to be removed and even if we are talking about a kick drum there is the issue of pitch / tuning of the individual layers...

Can you give an example of the kick sound you are aiming for?
http://soundcloud.com/samaritageto

Proper Education Always Corrects Errors

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LeVzi
KVRAF
2178 posts since 8 Jul, 2008 from UK

Re: Limiters

Post Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:24 am

Izak Synthiemental wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 8:06 am
Wow, so you layer 6 different samples to create one kick? That's a really challenging sound design endeavor! Are you mixing all the layers individually and then sum them into a buss or what is your approach? I'm really curious!

I guess there are lots of factors coming in when you try to create one coherent sound from so many different samples: the sounds might cancel one another partially out, there might be phase issues that need to corrected, you might create unwanted resonances that need to be removed and even if we are talking about a kick drum there is the issue of pitch / tuning of the individual layers...

Can you give an example of the kick sound you are aiming for?
There are 2 layers, one for the "tok" and the punch, then various layers for the middle and sub and tail. Seems to be a popular way to do it, and certainly sounds good.

This is a great example of what im talking about how this guy makes his kicks is a science tbh

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvp5DfsEDRI
Forward ever, Backward never

lwj
KVRist
323 posts since 3 Feb, 2018

Re: Limiters

Post Sun Dec 01, 2019 12:11 pm

This all sounds like a lot of work, layering samples. And also like a lot of limiting. You need to look at waveshapers and clipping for that kind of sound.

v1o
KVRAF
2052 posts since 2 Oct, 2004

Re: Limiters

Post Sun Dec 01, 2019 4:57 pm

My understanding is if your limiter has ISP protection it should never overshoot. ISP processing itself isn’t completely transparent, it definitely changes the sound. Adding another clipper after ISP limiting will definitely get you louder but isn’t going to be nice to your transients.
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Halonmusic
KVRAF
3163 posts since 13 Nov, 2015 from Norway

Re: Limiters

Post Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:17 pm

Don't be a Sheep. :borg: | Opinions matters :evil:

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LeVzi
KVRAF
2178 posts since 8 Jul, 2008 from UK

Re: Limiters

Post Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:42 am

Thanks for all suggestions, I decided to explore this clipper route , and bought https://www.siraudiotools.com/StandardCLIP.php

So far the results are really good, and coping better than a standard limiter, and certainly not causing massive distortions, so its doing what I hoped for.

Gutted I missed the Tokyo Dawn sale on BF now.
Forward ever, Backward never

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dionenoid
KVRian
543 posts since 3 Jan, 2019 from Holland

Re: Limiters

Post Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:26 am

You use Cubase right ? Excellent Softclipper, Maximizer and Multiband Compressor build-in. As well as the Distroyer. Worth exploring these to get your kick sounding right. I know a couple of rawstyle boys that use these all the time.

Sir StandardClip is an excellent choice. In use here everyday.
Tip : Use it on the Hardclipper setting for the clean shaving off of your peaks.
More BPM please

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Vortifex
KVRAF
1596 posts since 1 Sep, 2016

Re: Limiters

Post Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:34 am

LeVzi wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:42 am
Gutted I missed the Tokyo Dawn sale on BF now.
Still going on Plugin Boutique.

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LeVzi
KVRAF
2178 posts since 8 Jul, 2008 from UK

Re: Limiters

Post Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:21 pm

dionenoid wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:26 am
You use Cubase right ? Excellent Softclipper, Maximizer and Multiband Compressor build-in. As well as the Distroyer. Worth exploring these to get your kick sounding right. I know a couple of rawstyle boys that use these all the time.

Sir StandardClip is an excellent choice. In use here everyday.
Tip : Use it on the Hardclipper setting for the clean shaving off of your peaks.
It's definitely interesting to use, and when you combine hard clip with x16 oversampling, it's awesome sounding and seems to be the answer, if I run it less hard you can tame things enough to stop clipping and that's what I was after. I just gotta work out an issue with my monitors that i've discovered....
Forward ever, Backward never

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