Music Theory vs Chord VST

[harryupbabble]

it's all just tools. in the end, the music-maker uses their ears and decides what to keep and what to reject?

i mean if i am using a chord generator, one that spits out random chord progressions, i wont just automatically keep the first set that it spits out. i would keep searching for a set that my ears likes.

how is that different from using a guitar or piano and searching for "nice" chord progressions?

in both cases, the music-maker is till making the choices?

but maybe the process is faster with random chord generators? and you get rid of tendencies that muscle memory imposes when doing it manually by playing the "not-so-random" chord progressions via guitar or piano or whatever?

on the other hand, that "actually play" an instrument music-making method worked for all my classic rock songwriting idols, like the beatles
and led zeppelin and the stones.

but i wonder... if chord generators that we have now were available in the times of those classic rock music-makers or any music-makers at that time... wouldn't they had made use of it?

maybe they did use some other kind of generators?
bowie was mentioned. eno used that too, right?
hey, maybe mozart himself used some kind of primitive generator. no one could prove that he didn't?

heck, wouldn't mozart have used new tech? wasn't the piano new tech during his time?

i mean they made use of the electric guitar and that was sort of new tech at the time? chuck berry's time, i mean.

okay, guitars are not chord generators but new tech is new tech?

[Gamma-UT]

it's all just tools. in the end, the music-maker uses their ears and decides what to keep and what to reject?

Yes.

heck, wouldn't mozart have used new tech? wasn't the piano new tech during his time?

Mozart was no stranger to automated musical tools, though his dice game has never been fully authenticated (as being written by him):

https://imslp.org/wiki/Musikalisches_Wü ... g_Amadeus)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musikalisches_Würfelspiel

[vurt]

i saw something once about mozart, how there was another kid a year or so older, who was getting attention from music schools.
him and mozart where due to play for the schools patrons. but the older kid went riding with mozarts dad and "mysteriously" broke his arm.

not that that takes away from mozart, but things could have been different...
time takes strange twists along the way...

[Forgotten]

heck, wouldn't mozart have used new tech? wasn't the piano new tech during his time?

Yes, but if he used a ghost writer I think his legacy would be completely different from the legacy we know. Changing to a different instrument should not have a significant impact on ability to compose or analyze music.

[donkey tugger]

it's all just tools. in the end, the music-maker uses their ears and decides what to keep and what to reject?

i mean if i am using a chord generator, one that spits out random chord progressions, i wont just automatically keep the first set that it spits out. i would keep searching for a set that my ears likes.

how is that different from using a guitar or piano and searching for "nice" chord progressions?

The choice is being limited and therefore the scope for imagination is removed. Where is the inspired key change/move to a chord that 'shouldn't' work, but does (as in an example I've used before there's famously something like 13 key changes in 'Penny Lane', none of them obvious, but they work), or the characteristics that writing on a particular instrument produces. I'm not against any technology per-se (sinthesisers... ), but to rely on these tools is to remove a whole set of options.

[harryupbabble]

i saw something once about mozart, how there was another kid a year or so older, who was getting attention from music schools.
him and mozart where due to play for the schools patrons. but the older kid went riding with mozarts dad and "mysteriously" broke his arm.

not that that takes away from mozart, but things could have been different...
time takes strange twists along the way...

I wish, maybe, that mozart's dad was my dad even if he was maybe such a not so nice person, but a goal oriented one. okay maybe it wouldn't have made a difference in my case.

maybe Mozart was truly unique because other sons or daughters have fathers like Mozart's but they are no Mozart, it seems. but I am not sure. wait a minute, bobby fischer's dad was nothing like Mozart's dad?

[vurt]

i saw something once about mozart, how there was another kid a year or so older, who was getting attention from music schools.
him and mozart where due to play for the schools patrons. but the older kid went riding with mozarts dad and "mysteriously" broke his arm.

not that that takes away from mozart, but things could have been different...
time takes strange twists along the way...

I wish, maybe, that mozart's dad was my dad even if he was maybe such a not so nice person, but a goal oriented one. okay maybe it wouldn't have made a difference in my case.

maybe Mozart was truly unique because other sons or daughters have fathers like Mozart's but they are no Mozart, it seems. but I am not sure. wait a minute, bobby fischer's dad was nothing like Mozart's dad?

id have been screwed if mozarts dad was my dad.
i dont speak austrian.
that said, probably about the same amount of conversation as with my actual dad

[Forgotten]

The choice is being limited and therefore the scope for imagination is removed. Where is the inspired key change/move to a chord that 'shouldn't' work, but does (as in an example I've used before there's famously something like 13 key changes in 'Penny Lane', none of them obvious, but they work), or the characteristics that writing on a particular instrument produces. I'm not against any technology per-se (sinthesisers... ), but to rely on these tools is to remove a whole set of options.

...and those key changes work, probably not because McCartney carefully composed the piece, but because he had a great ear for what works and what doesn’t.

It’s not about how much formal musical education you have, but total avoidance of learning (through whichever method you choose) will mean you run out of road at some point and end up cycling through the same things over and over with no knowledge of how to move on.

[harryupbabble]

it's all just tools. in the end, the music-maker uses their ears and decides what to keep and what to reject?

i mean if i am using a chord generator, one that spits out random chord progressions, i wont just automatically keep the first set that it spits out. i would keep searching for a set that my ears likes.

how is that different from using a guitar or piano and searching for "nice" chord progressions?

The choice is being limited and therefore the scope for imagination is removed. Where is the inspired key change/move to a chord that 'shouldn't' work, but does (as in an example I've used before there's famously something like 13 key changes in 'Penny Lane', none of them obvious, but they work), or the characteristics that writing on a particular instrument produces. I'm not against any technology per-se (sinthesisers... ), but to rely on these tools is to remove a whole set of options.

but couldn't a great software developer create one to suit your needs?
you want complex key changes? that's codeable by a developer?

[vurt]

The choice is being limited and therefore the scope for imagination is removed. Where is the inspired key change/move to a chord that 'shouldn't' work, but does (as in an example I've used before there's famously something like 13 key changes in 'Penny Lane', none of them obvious, but they work), or the characteristics that writing on a particular instrument produces. I'm not against any technology per-se (sinthesisers... ), but to rely on these tools is to remove a whole set of options.

...and those key changes work, probably not because McCartney carefully composed the piece, but because he had a great ear for what works and what doesn’t.

It’s not about how much formal musical education you have, but total avoidance of learning (through whichever method you choose) will mean you run out of road at some point and end up cycling through the same things over and over with no knowledge of how to move on.

mccartney also had help remember.
george martin would often help flesh out arrangements not sure how much or on which tracks, but that was his "job" as producer.

incidentally, gm was taught music by jane ashers mum.

[harryupbabble]

The choice is being limited and therefore the scope for imagination is removed. Where is the inspired key change/move to a chord that 'shouldn't' work, but does (as in an example I've used before there's famously something like 13 key changes in 'Penny Lane', none of them obvious, but they work), or the characteristics that writing on a particular instrument produces. I'm not against any technology per-se (sinthesisers... ), but to rely on these tools is to remove a whole set of options.

...and those key changes work, probably not because McCartney carefully composed the piece, but because he had a great ear for what works and what doesn’t.

It’s not about how much formal musical education you have, but total avoidance of learning (through whichever method you choose) will mean you run out of road at some point and end up cycling through the same things over and over with no knowledge of how to move on.

but there's no guarantee against burnout. even with formal training, eventually burnout happens. it happens to prog rockers that had formal music education? but maybe generators could provide longer time before burnout because the combination possibilities are less limited?

[vurt]

i think the burnout was mostly from drugs and touring. most of the proggers carried on making music, just not extensive tours anymore.

[harryupbabble]

aarrgh, I just looked at the clock, i'm late. bye Brit people. love you and your little island but big music.

[Hink]

somehow I got hooked up with a guy from Florida on FB, I have no idea who he is and tbh I think the recommendation came from another 2nd hand friend. I do know it's because of guitars because he plays and he started this FB group called any guitar player who jams What this site is about is people jamming on cam but a lot including the friend uses backing tracks (actually they seem to pay a lot for some from what I gather). He obviously has some health issues, he's my age and seems like a pretty good guy. I did post a song of mine when I first joined the group years ago (I think I was still in Mass) but what they do is not my thing. I wont be judgmental but I will say there are some people who catch my attention and others who...well they would get torn to shreds most places on the net. Still they have their own group, they have fun, he's on several hours a day (live) and I doubt many of them are going to be on AGT and those using backing tracks, just jamming to them really are a lot closer to just coloring as opposed to paint by numbers.

So what? Yes some people will move on and want to learn more theory and grow, good for them. Others will leave their guitars in the corner for months and take it out and jam the same song for years, (some might do it online), some will sit around and play to their records all day long and never more...so what? Isn't KvR here for all levels, I know, I know people come in here and argue a lot about what they dont know about...I imagine many of us did so when were at similar stages, when we dont understand we can become defensive.

If the issue is people dont want these kind of threads in music theory we can have a discussion about that, if Ben and the other mods are good with that so am I. What I dont understand is why we feel we need to improve others, the ol' leading a horse to water and all. Also as was mentioned in this thread and probably every other thread like this, music means something different to each person. FTR my position is one of growth, I am not demonstrative, not a showman, I am my own toughest critic and I play for me, but yes I need to keep going further, learning more...scratch that, understanding more...I am quite certain that in my youth I would have used such tools for learning and ftr I am also certain I would have really benefited from forums like KvR instead of listening to my peers back then, boy were we clueless (talking pre-teen and early teen years)

Do we want to move these topics out of the MT forum and if so exactly what forum should we put these in...kinda gray area here, it does have a little to do with music theory...meanwhile can we stop with the accidental public shaming that might come from these threads...it's not conducive to membership retention

[jancivil]

it's all just tools. in the end, the music-maker uses their ears i would keep searching for a set that my ears likes.

how is that different from using a guitar or piano and searching for "nice" chord progressions?

I didn’t need the suggestions. I start with an idea and my ear is involved on a whole other level than merely the arbiter after a bunch of choices that were perfectly obvious to begin with. And the chord idea might be tied in with a melody. The idea also involves the frequency of the changes, the harmonic rhythm. *shrug*

Imagine the difference between a personal impetus, an idea and a multiple choice question.