Amp sim for alternative rock... S-Gear or Amplitube ?

VST, AU, etc. plug-in Virtual Effects discussion
heyheycnv
KVRist
97 posts since 13 Dec, 2016

Post Wed Jan 15, 2020 7:38 am

I like Kuassa Creme for the lo fi dirty sound. It sounds like a Peavey practice amp from the 80's miced with a 57. Vermilion gets you much better clean tones but it's really hard to get grit and dirt from it like with Creme.

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nideto
KVRer
10 posts since 22 Aug, 2019

Re: Amp sim for alternative rock... S-Gear or Amplitube ?

Post Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:04 pm

Thanks all, now i am more indecided than before haha

I agree with you doney tugger, it's more about the musician (playing, tweaking, mix...) than the amp sim. I was expecting that kind of anwsers though i was wondering if an amp sim in particular would be better for the type of sounds i described. All amp sim can sound the same with a proper mix. In this respect, nice videos dimitar but it works better for me to listen to solo guitar, i mean not in a full band configuration and mixed... And i can't see any amp bundle which is more what i am looking for.

Bias fx looks great but i can't stand marshall amps vintage knobs ! Seriously, you can't see the knob position without turning it. Maybe you can customize that with Bias amp, however, that software seems overwhelming for a beginner like me. Like i said, i'm not a preset guy although customizing a preamp, poweramp, etc. scared me.
Concerning tweaking stuff, i hear a lost about IR's, which if i understand properly is the most important element in the chain... Should i bother with that now ? Is that real some amp sim cannot import external IRs, like Amplitube ?

I will check out Neura DSP Plini, looks interesting. I don't know about Helix sim, i heard it was not the best software without hardware. And as you said SLiC, an hardware valve preamp is really a thing to get a better tone ?

I also need to clarify if i'm more about a Fender amp with pedals or a Marshall / another high gain amp with pedals, i don't know yet. I you have Amplitube 4 and the Fender 2 kit, could you tell me if there is really a big difference between the 2 free amp (american tube clean 1 & 2 which are related to super and deluxe reverb) and amp from the Fender 2 kit ?

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Magic Russ
KVRist
52 posts since 2 Mar, 2017

Re: Amp sim for alternative rock... S-Gear or Amplitube ?

Post Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:58 pm

rollasoc wrote:
Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:05 pm
Weirdly I use Amplitude for effects and S-gear for amp. So I would say both. But then I sometimes use Bias or Guitar Rig for effects... So all of them.
That's not a bad way to go.
nideto wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:04 pm
Concerning tweaking stuff, i hear a lost about IR's, which if i understand properly is the most important element in the chain... Should i bother with that now ? Is that real some amp sim cannot import external IRs, like Amplitube ?
IR's are not the most important component. In fact, some amp sims don't even use them.

Some amp sims generate the sound of a speaker by modeling how that component functions (amplitube). Others generate that portion of the sound via convolution processing, which does use an IR to replicate the sound of a speaker. (S-Gear, Revalver). Some allow multiple options (Bias FX, Guitar Rig). It isn't a case of better as much as different.
I also need to clarify if i'm more about a Fender amp with pedals or a Marshall / another high gain amp with pedals, i don't know yet. I you have Amplitube 4 and the Fender 2 kit, could you tell me if there is really a big difference between the 2 free amp (american tube clean 1 & 2 which are related to super and deluxe reverb) and amp from the Fender 2 kit ?
There is a bit of a difference. The two "American Tube" models have controls which did not exist on the original amps such as Presence, and lack features which exist in the originals such as bright switches or tremolo. The Fender and Fender 2 collections are much more recent and contain improved modelling.

The original Fender package covers a wider range of amps and includes some effects you may be interested in. The Fender 2 package contains 7 amp models, and 6 of them are from 1957 or earlier.

glokraw
KVRAF
7354 posts since 6 Oct, 2004

Re: Amp sim for alternative rock... S-Gear or Amplitube ?

Post Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:58 pm

Commentators mean well, but guitars sounds are difficult to recommend,
as we all have ears in different condition, strings of different gauge and condition,
pickups of various electronics, in different combos, with necks and bodies
of guitars from forests circling the globe, played in a wide range of humidities,
into computer systems with even wider ranges of variations :dog:

My feeble attempt at advice, would be
1. Never pay full price. Competition is too fierce.
2. Try as many free and entry level, and no-brainer options as you can.
while practicing like a madman.
3. Study gain-staging and modulation, being an expert in these areas
will guide you through most other areas. Google is your friend.
Yes, become an expert!
4. Get a cheap used modeling amp, with line and usb outs,
an old Fender Mustang V head has both, should be under $150,
with a big dial for a hundred preset slots you can edit or replace.
Immediacy, and headphones for quiet, are important for
serious practice.
5. Your ears rule, other ears, not so much :hihi: Feast on and and glean
all the great knowledge happily shared, and then let your ears decide.
6. Great songs can make a lousy band or artist popular.
Without naming names, my favorite band discovered in 2019 is
bar-room mediocre in production values, equally sad in
performance skills, even worse in stage-presence.
Yet the fans go buy tickets, drawn in by the stories
and mysteries unfolding in song, and keep buying
whatever else they can find. If I load one of their songs,
I have to play along with a dozen :hyper:

BlueCat Axiom, besides being an ace sim, lets you load
3d party vsts in it's effect slots. Loaded Amplitube and Guitar Rig
just on principal :party: BlueCat give out 'FreeAmp', a nice set of
3 virtual amps, and also have a fine free effects collection.
Their full product demos fade out and back in, rather than an
IK style hissyfit :wink:
Cheers

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telecode
KVRAF
1551 posts since 24 Mar, 2015 from Toronto, Canada

Re: Amp sim for alternative rock... S-Gear or Amplitube ?

Post Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:38 am

Magic Russ wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:58 pm
Some amp sims generate the sound of a speaker by modeling how that component functions (amplitube). Others generate that portion of the sound via convolution processing, which does use an IR to replicate the sound of a speaker. (S-Gear, Revalver). Some allow multiple options (Bias FX, Guitar Rig). It isn't a case of better as much as different.
is there a list or resource of how modeling differs from "convultion processing" and IRs? I am still trying to ge tmy head around how is IRs different from Amplitiube modeling.
The original Fender package covers a wider range of amps and includes some effects you may be interested in. The Fender 2 package contains 7 amp models, and 6 of them are from 1957 or earlier.
For the type of stuff I do, I am getting great results with IKM's Fender Coll 2. Its not quite like the real thing, but I would say its 80% there.

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GaryG
KVRAF
5877 posts since 13 Jan, 2003 from Kent, UK

Re: Amp sim for alternative rock... S-Gear or Amplitube ?

Post Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:24 am

The Kuassa amps give a good base to build on, Vermillion is indie rock in a box. I tend to use that for a more 'produced' sound, especially if I'm piling on the effects for ambient noodling. If I want something a bit more live that you have to play then Brainworx bx_bassdude is great. Works well with tricksy Sonic Youth tunings.
()_()
(O.o)
(")(")

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zvenx
KVRAF
7381 posts since 16 Feb, 2005 from Kingston, Jamaica

Re: Amp sim for alternative rock... S-Gear or Amplitube ?

Post Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:24 am

I have Amplitube 4 but have never used it in an actual project. I use to use SGear very often..... until TH-U and the whole Rig Player thing. For me game over, I have used nothing else since, bought quite a few Rig Player packs. To me this is a whole new level of realism.
You should at least try it.
rsp
sound sculptist

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telecode
KVRAF
1551 posts since 24 Mar, 2015 from Toronto, Canada

Re: Amp sim for alternative rock... S-Gear or Amplitube ?

Post Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:55 am

Thats what I am interested in figuring out. How does exactly TH-U's Mesa Boogie based Bogie MKV differ from the way IKM make their Mesa Boogie collection?

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zvenx
KVRAF
7381 posts since 16 Feb, 2005 from Kingston, Jamaica

Re: Amp sim for alternative rock... S-Gear or Amplitube ?

Post Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:07 am

telecode wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 4:55 am
Thats what I am interested in figuring out. How does exactly TH-U's Mesa Boogie based Bogie MKV differ from the way IKM make their Mesa Boogie collection?
I assume you mean this one:
https://overloud.com/products/choptones-bogie-mkv

vs the Bogner XTC modeled a la TH-3.

As far as I understand it, the amp, cabinet, speakers, mics etc are 'profiled' similar to what the kempler does.

rsp
sound sculptist

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Recourt
KVRist
60 posts since 25 Jun, 2014

Re: Amp sim for alternative rock... S-Gear or Amplitube ?

Post Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:08 pm

The Kuassa Marshall is great and the free Cypress from Black Rooster is one of my favorite amp sims ever for dirty grit.

electro
KVRAF
4588 posts since 6 May, 2002

Re: Amp sim for alternative rock... S-Gear or Amplitube ?

Post Fri Jan 17, 2020 8:43 am

The recent Dimebag expansion for Amplitube has a new JC-120
Intel Core2 Quad CPU + 4 GIG RAM

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Scrubbing Monkeys
KVRian
789 posts since 21 Apr, 2017 from Bahia, Brazil

Re: Amp sim for alternative rock... S-Gear or Amplitube ?

Post Fri Jan 17, 2020 12:34 pm

Recourt wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 10:08 pm
The Kuassa Marshall is great and the free Cypress from Black Rooster is one of my favorite amp sims ever for dirty grit.
Yep

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nideto
KVRer
10 posts since 22 Aug, 2019

Re: Amp sim for alternative rock... S-Gear or Amplitube ?

Post Sat Jan 18, 2020 2:11 pm

Hum, so i think i'll buy S-gear, it sounds awesome and i like this amp sim philosophy.

I didn't get hooked on Kuassa but i tried the Plini too : really nice (UI is S tier), it makes me want to play some kind of Devin Townsend stuff... But that's not what i am looking for, i didn't try it for a long a time but i am sure S-gear is more versatile, less oriented, it will suite me better. And sometimes i love to play 80's heavy/glam (big fan of Loudness and Takasaki if you know this band), looks good to play that kind of stuff too - a vibe of Marshall jmp-1 emulated rack.

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Magic Russ
KVRist
52 posts since 2 Mar, 2017

Re: Amp sim for alternative rock... S-Gear or Amplitube ?

Post Sat Jan 18, 2020 8:07 pm

telecode wrote:
Thu Jan 16, 2020 3:38 am
Magic Russ wrote:
Wed Jan 15, 2020 8:58 pm
Some amp sims generate the sound of a speaker by modeling how that component functions (amplitube). Others generate that portion of the sound via convolution processing, which does use an IR to replicate the sound of a speaker. (S-Gear, Revalver). Some allow multiple options (Bias FX, Guitar Rig). It isn't a case of better as much as different.
is there a list or resource of how modeling differs from "convultion processing" and IRs? I am still trying to ge tmy head around how is IRs different from Amplitiube modeling.
Component modeling is when you measure the individual components of the signal chain and write software to interpret those measurements. For example, you measure the frequency and volume responses of a speaker and you write software to model that component.

With convolution, you apply a single file called an impulse response through a convolution and a convolution engine will apply those changes to the signal. An impulse response is basically the sound of a simple percussive sound like a click or gunshot through some gear with the percussive sound removed. Each IR would measure the sound of a speaker through a particular microphone at a particular placement. The vendor would provide a collection of these so that you could have the sound of the speaker through some popular microphones at a variety of placements.

With component modelling, you could purchase mic models and speaker models, and have any mic model work with any speaker model. You could also easily move the mics relative to the speaker. And if you buy a new speaker model that should work seamlessly with any mic model you already have (and vice versa)

With convolution, you are limited to the choice and placement of the microphones with respect to the speaker when the IR was made. For example, you might have a series of impulses that were taken at various placements with an SM-57, but if you wanted to get the sound of that speaker through a condenser mic, or at a different placement, you would have to find a new set of IRs.

Convolution has the advantage that once you have a convolution engine in place, no further coding is necessary to use any of the various IRs that various people have compiled. Generating an IR is more about having a decent studio than coding skill, and there is no shortage of free and commercial IRs available.

I've gotten some pretty good sounds with either technology, so ears rule.

acousticglue
KVRian
850 posts since 27 May, 2008

Re: Amp sim for alternative rock... S-Gear or Amplitube ?

Post Sun Jan 19, 2020 7:33 am

If Amplitube had IR convo built in would be one of the main choices. I use it most anyway. After a while you really don't need much else turning off cabs adding convo outside of it. Outside fx rule with it

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