bending from pitch x and restriking pitch x results in stutter or dropped note in bitwig

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Tj Shredder
KVRAF
3980 posts since 6 Jan, 2017 from Outer Space

Post Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:12 am

I just ask for recording as it is. Let the devices decide what to do with Midi. But that in addition what Bitwig records now. I just need the freedom to tell which information should be played back. Either the sophisticated and powerful Bitwig track or the original Midi as I played it...
To overcome the problems with channel per row, I can also imagine a solution which would require changes in the LinnStrument. There could be a “two channels per row MPE” mode, allow two notes per row and alternate between two channels. (Ok, we loose the common channel... and Bitwig would reject that as its not MPE... Ok, we can leave the highest string on a single channel... (lame workarounds I know...))

Echoes in the Attic
KVRAF
7886 posts since 12 May, 2008

Re: bending from pitch x and restriking pitch x results in stutter or dropped note in bitwig

Post Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:25 am

Tj Shredder wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:12 am
I just ask for recording as it is. Let the devices decide what to do with Midi.
But you haven't said if you think that "record as it is" should be in the note expression data or regular midi data. Regular midi data should be possible already however I have found that it does not seem to be possible to record multiple channels of midi at the same time in regular midi automation. I have a thread on this in the Bitwig forum and have also sent a support request about this. When MPE is off, as well as PB > Expression is off, pitch bend only seems to get recorded to channel 1. Channels 2 and up get note expression, which doesn't get used with mpe of. So that's maybe a bug, we don't know yet. As for recording multiple streams of expressions on the same midi channel, is that even technically possible? Do other DAWs allow that? I thik they would just get merged into a single data stream for the channel.
System: Windows 10, Dell XPS 2-in-1, Bitwig 3, Steinberg UR44.

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Tj Shredder
KVRAF
3980 posts since 6 Jan, 2017 from Outer Space

Re: bending from pitch x and restriking pitch x results in stutter or dropped note in bitwig

Post Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:48 am

Echoes in the Attic wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:25 am
Tj Shredder wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:12 am
I just ask for recording as it is. Let the devices decide what to do with Midi.
But you haven't said if you think that "record as it is" should be in the note expression data or regular midi data.
Midi does not know anything about expressions. That is a concept introduced with VST3 by Steinberg and the Bitwig translates Midi just into expressions an records just those (ignoring all messages which don’t fit like sysex). I want to have recorded both, and just a choice what to play back. As hardware and VST2 synths only understand Midi anyway, those are the target for plain Midi. Of course, as soon I start editing, expressions make more sense, but for hardware and VST2 it has to be translated back into Midi again (and looses resolution that way of course)...
In short words: as my LinnStrument only spits out Midi, that has to be recorded (as it is). Any transformation into whatever is a point of failure, and in the past it failed badly as you know...

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Roger_Linn
KVRian
1489 posts since 8 Jun, 2010
Roger Linn Design

Re: bending from pitch x and restriking pitch x results in stutter or dropped note in bitwig

Post Sun Jan 19, 2020 9:39 am

I agree. I’d prefer for Bitwig to record the incoming MIDI exactly as received, just like Logic or most other DAWs. It could still do pitch-based Bend editing by defining the Bend Range in the editor. And if the synth has a different Bend Range than what was recorded, they would provide Bend Range scaling on output. As it stands, it seems overly confusing and requires too much reverse engineering to try to figure out how to work around their implementation.

Echoes in the Attic
KVRAF
7886 posts since 12 May, 2008

Re: bending from pitch x and restriking pitch x results in stutter or dropped note in bitwig

Post Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:28 am

Tj Shredder wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:48 am
Echoes in the Attic wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:25 am
Tj Shredder wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:12 am
I just ask for recording as it is. Let the devices decide what to do with Midi.
But you haven't said if you think that "record as it is" should be in the note expression data or regular midi data.
Midi does not know anything about expressions. That is a concept introduced with VST3 by Steinberg and the Bitwig translates Midi just into expressions an records just those (ignoring all messages which don’t fit like sysex). I want to have recorded both, and just a choice what to play back. As hardware and VST2 synths only understand Midi anyway, those are the target for plain Midi. Of course, as soon I start editing, expressions make more sense, but for hardware and VST2 it has to be translated back into Midi again (and looses resolution that way of course)...
In short words: as my LinnStrument only spits out Midi, that has to be recorded (as it is). Any transformation into whatever is a point of failure, and in the past it failed badly as you know...
I agree that I would like Bitwig to be able to record everything exactly as was played and I've sent support requests about that. But I am trying to tell you that this might be a bug, we don't know why multiple channels of midi can't be recorded at the same time as regular midi data. I still don't even know if I am doing something wrong, because nobody has confirmed that they can't do it, and I haven't heard back from support yet. I see no reason that playing multiple channels of midi (with PB>Expression turned off) should not record multiple channels of midi automation instead of note expression. But it doesn't. Or rather it only does for channel 1. So first we find if there is a bug there because it might do what we want. And yes in this case I would also want the midi pitch bend units to be in terms of notes rather than the midi range of 0-127. Of course I would still prefer the note expression data because it is right there in the midi note editor attached to the notes. But I can understand if that is a strictly MPE mode (no more than one simultaneous note on a given channel).
Last edited by Echoes in the Attic on Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
System: Windows 10, Dell XPS 2-in-1, Bitwig 3, Steinberg UR44.

BobDog
KVRian
814 posts since 2 Apr, 2015

Re: bending from pitch x and restriking pitch x results in stutter or dropped note in bitwig

Post Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:29 am

I did look at just recording multi channel midi in BW, rather like the Live workaround.

Midi CCs/pitchbend are treated as automation data by BW.

There was a major issue though where when you overdub midi it toggles between recorded automation and the automation it is recording! Maybe this is fixed now?

Also midi automation is stored in the track, so if you delete a midi clip it leaves all the midi automation there, madness!
Last edited by BobDog on Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

BobDog
KVRian
814 posts since 2 Apr, 2015

Re: bending from pitch x and restriking pitch x results in stutter or dropped note in bitwig

Post Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:30 am

.......

BobDog
KVRian
814 posts since 2 Apr, 2015

Re: bending from pitch x and restriking pitch x results in stutter or dropped note in bitwig

Post Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:34 am

Echoes in the Attic wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:28 am
Tj Shredder wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 8:48 am
Echoes in the Attic wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 5:25 am
Tj Shredder wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:12 am
I just ask for recording as it is. Let the devices decide what to do with Midi.
But you haven't said if you think that "record as it is" should be in the note expression data or regular midi data.
Midi does not know anything about expressions. That is a concept introduced with VST3 by Steinberg and the Bitwig translates Midi just into expressions an records just those (ignoring all messages which don’t fit like sysex). I want to have recorded both, and just a choice what to play back. As hardware and VST2 synths only understand Midi anyway, those are the target for plain Midi. Of course, as soon I start editing, expressions make more sense, but for hardware and VST2 it has to be translated back into Midi again (and looses resolution that way of course)...
In short words: as my LinnStrument only spits out Midi, that has to be recorded (as it is). Any transformation into whatever is a point of failure, and in the past it failed badly as you know...
I agree that I would like Bitwig to be able to record everything exactly as was played and I've sent support requests about that. But I am trying to tell you that this might be a bug, we don't know why multiple channels of midi can't be recorded at the same time as regular midi data. I still don't even know if I am doing something wrong, because nobody has confirmed that they can't do it, and I haven't heard back from support yet. I see no reason that playing multiple channels of midi (with PB>Expression turned off) should not record multiple channels of midi automation instead of note expression. But it doesn't. Or rather it only does for channel 1. So first we find if there is a bug there because it might do what we want. And yes in this case I would also want the midi pitch bend units to be in terms of notes rather than the midi range of 0-127. Of course I would still prefer the note expression data because it is right there in the midi note editor attached to the notes. But I can understand if that is a strictly MPE mode (no more than one simultaneous note on a given channel).
It is dependent on the controller script, if you use a script that registers as MPE then it won't record standard midi correctly over all channels.

Make sure you are not using the LS controller script and try that.

Echoes in the Attic
KVRAF
7886 posts since 12 May, 2008

Re: bending from pitch x and restriking pitch x results in stutter or dropped note in bitwig

Post Sun Jan 19, 2020 12:03 pm

BobDog wrote:
Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:34 am
It is dependent on the controller script, if you use a script that registers as MPE then it won't record standard midi correctly over all channels.

Make sure you are not using the LS controller script and try that.
Aha! That's what it was! Nobody had that insight over at the Bitwig forum. But yes indeed when I deactivate the Linnstrument script from the controller settings and add a generic midi control with linnstrument as the input, then all channels of midi are recorded as automation. Very interesting!

So for the others - There is in fact a way to record what you hear, but you will record it as disconnected midi automation data. And while you can color code the notes, I don't see a way to color code the midi automation or be able to easily recognize which automation is for which note. Plus you can only edit one lane at a time. So certainly not fun editing.

But just to play devil's advocate, this might be the only way to just "record what you hear". If midi data is to be recorded per note, I'm honestly not sure how they could/should record record midi data that could potentially have multiple notes on a channel. Which note would you write the pitch bend data on for example? So maybe the old midi style is what you have to use if you might have multiple notes in a channel. And if that is the case, then maybe the request is actually to improve the midi data editing so that you can get good multi channel editing outside of the MPE/note expression editing.
System: Windows 10, Dell XPS 2-in-1, Bitwig 3, Steinberg UR44.

BobDog
KVRian
814 posts since 2 Apr, 2015

Re: bending from pitch x and restriking pitch x results in stutter or dropped note in bitwig

Post Sun Jan 19, 2020 12:16 pm

I think the main issue with BW and this mode of working is the total disconnect between midi clips and midi automation, never mind the disconnect between midi notes and midi automation.

Issue one is the overdubbing, when I was talking to them about this they registered the issues as a bug but I am not sure if this is fixed as I have given up on BW as a DAW and my subscription has lapsed.

Issue two is that in the arranger deleting clips does not delete automation and there is no way to delete multiple lanes of automation, so the only way of working is to individually delete each automation lane for that time period or just delete the track and start again from scratch, I also talked to them about this and they said that would not change!

In clip view deleting a clip also deletes automation though, so if you work in this view it is a workable workaround.

Echoes in the Attic
KVRAF
7886 posts since 12 May, 2008

Re: bending from pitch x and restriking pitch x results in stutter or dropped note in bitwig

Post Sun Jan 19, 2020 12:26 pm

^ Yeah automation has some serious issues in Bitwig. I haven't even sent in the issues I've encountered with automation yet. And you raise good points about the disconnect between arranger clips and automation. It has me a bit concerned.
System: Windows 10, Dell XPS 2-in-1, Bitwig 3, Steinberg UR44.

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