What is the secret with Moog VCF?

Anything about hardware musical instruments.
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Forgotten
KVRAF
10085 posts since 15 Apr, 2019 from Nowhere

Post Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:04 pm

What’s got a hazelnut in every bite?

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vurt
addled muppet weed
61801 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass

Re: What is the secret with Moog VCF?

Post Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:05 pm

Forgotten wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:04 pm
What’s got a hazelnut in every bite?
squirrel shit!

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Forgotten
KVRAF
10085 posts since 15 Apr, 2019 from Nowhere

Re: What is the secret with Moog VCF?

Post Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:32 pm

vurt wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:05 pm
Forgotten wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:04 pm
What’s got a hazelnut in every bite?
squirrel shit!
Stay on topic!

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Hink
Rad Grandad
31131 posts since 6 Sep, 2003 from Downeast Maine

Re: What is the secret with Moog VCF?

Post Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:45 pm

seriously, please stay on topic
Why are so many guitar player jokes one liners? So the rest of the band can understand them.

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Halonmusic
KVRAF
3435 posts since 13 Nov, 2015 from Norway

Re: What is the secret with Moog VCF?

Post Wed Jan 22, 2020 1:45 pm

vurt wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:40 pm
Halonmusic wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:49 am
vurt wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:40 am
Halonmusic wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:30 am
Blasphemy! *hovers mouse over report button*
spaced.
classic uk tv comedy :)
Ah. I do like british humour :)
well, if you also enjoy sci fi/fantasy/comic books...
then i totally recommend "spaced" 8)
If its got that monty python humour im sold :)
Forgotten wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:45 pm
vurt wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 12:40 pm
Halonmusic wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:49 am
vurt wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:40 am
Halonmusic wrote:
Wed Jan 22, 2020 11:30 am
Blasphemy! *hovers mouse over report button*
spaced.
classic uk tv comedy :)
Ah. I do like british humour :)
well, if you also enjoy sci fi/fantasy/comic books...
then i totally recommend "spaced" 8)
Me too.

Not sure where you are, but I’ve been able to watch Spaced on Hulu here in the US.
Im pretty sure it says Norway under my profile name ;) Anyway i think Hulu is available on Xbox so of to watch spaced i guess :D
Don't be a Sheep. :borg: | Opinions matters :evil:

yul
KVRian
973 posts since 26 Sep, 2002 from Montreal, CANADA

Re: What is the secret with Moog VCF?

Post Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:54 pm

The secret to the (mini) moog filter is 1- resonance lowering as cutoff goes down 2- bass being removed as you increase resonance and 3- the cutoff following portamento/glide.

lfm
KVRAF
5238 posts since 22 Jan, 2005 from Sweden

Re: What is the secret with Moog VCF?

Post Tue Jan 28, 2020 8:34 pm

yul wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:54 pm
The secret to the (mini) moog filter is 1- resonance lowering as cutoff goes down 2- bass being removed as you increase resonance and 3- the cutoff following portamento/glide.
Seems like insightful analysis, thanks. :)

Stefken
KVRAF
1861 posts since 9 Nov, 2016

Re: What is the secret with Moog VCF?

Post Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:01 am

Well, I wouldn't call bass being removed (2) part of the secret, as in success, of the Moog filter.

It's no co-incidence that the pro3 introduced a 'boost' function to counter that, as have several software synths.

chk071
KVRAF
23276 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Re: What is the secret with Moog VCF?

Post Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:15 am

yul wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:54 pm
The secret to the (mini) moog filter is 1- resonance lowering as cutoff goes down 2- bass being removed as you increase resonance and 3- the cutoff following portamento/glide.
I wouldn't call any of those the "secret of the Moog filter". For me, it's rather a mixture of the general filter's character, the Moog envelopes, and the resonant behavior. Hard to describe more specifically, but, it has a unique creaminess, warmth, and simply sounds great.

The decrease of bass, or, rather, volume, is a unfortunate side effect, which I would definitely rate as a disadvantage. Unless you want to closely emulate the filter's behavior, I would get rid of it in software. Not a huge downer though. I wonder why Sylenth1 has the same though, it's really not something I'd emulate when I'd do a software filter, especially when it's not closely modelled, just like Sylenth1's filter is not a closely modelled ladder filter.

Stefken
KVRAF
1861 posts since 9 Nov, 2016

Re: What is the secret with Moog VCF?

Post Wed Jan 29, 2020 4:38 am

chk071 wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:15 am
yul wrote:
Tue Jan 28, 2020 1:54 pm
The secret to the (mini) moog filter is 1- resonance lowering as cutoff goes down 2- bass being removed as you increase resonance and 3- the cutoff following portamento/glide.
I wouldn't call any of those the "secret of the Moog filter". For me, it's rather a mixture of the general filter's character, the Moog envelopes, and the resonant behavior. Hard to describe more specifically, but, it has a unique creaminess, warmth, and simply sounds great.

The decrease of bass, or, rather, volume, is a unfortunate side effect, which I would definitely rate as a disadvantage. Unless you want to closely emulate the filter's behavior, I would get rid of it in software.
+1

lfm
KVRAF
5238 posts since 22 Jan, 2005 from Sweden

Re: What is the secret with Moog VCF?

Post Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:10 am

chk071 wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:15 am
The decrease of bass, or, rather, volume, is a unfortunate side effect, which I would definitely rate as a disadvantage.
But there are two ways to go
- increase of resonance let filter clip
- increase of resonance lower volume so it does not clip

and I don't think analog is prepared to lower volume for headroom and increase overall noise floor all the time.

Really common for digital as well, since you don't want to sacrifice a lot of volume unless there are peaks to handle within the digital realm.

Digital Hammond do as well if you add percussion, but also a setting not to do it if you prefer that.

Nordlead do it too, increase resonance and volume goes down.

Some may prefer Prophet sound to Moog, since as I read in thread that Prophet compensate bass when doing resonance somehow, if I got that right.

Listened to Pro 3 demo and it sounds really lovely too.

Some praise Oberheim for phat basses - so not sure how they differ in construction and characteristics?

chk071
KVRAF
23276 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Re: What is the secret with Moog VCF?

Post Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:40 am

lfm wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 5:10 am
chk071 wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 3:15 am
The decrease of bass, or, rather, volume, is a unfortunate side effect, which I would definitely rate as a disadvantage.
But there are two ways to go
- increase of resonance let filter clip
- increase of resonance lower volume so it does not clip
You're right, that's an issue. It's still preferable for me to a mostly quite significant loss of volume though.

I think a lot of soft synths do it by not lowering the volume that much. Or, the resonant peak isn't up to levels most analog synths go up to. Of course, that leads to a different filter characteristic, and, it's probably up to considertation whether or not you want it to be like that. Or... up to the skills of the developer. :)

Stefken
KVRAF
1861 posts since 9 Nov, 2016

Re: What is the secret with Moog VCF?

Post Wed Jan 29, 2020 6:15 am

Problem:
This seems to be the problem.
Urs wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:10 am
4-pole ladder/casacde filters have a phase shift of 180° at the cutoff frequency but almost no phase shift towards the bass. Resonance is a negative feedback, which essentially creates a 360° phase shift, so it *adds* gain to the cutoff frequency while it deminishes gain pretty much everyhwere an octave or two away from cutoff - because there it really just subtracts the signal from itself.
Solution:
This page suggests to use a resonant HPF to boost the bass.
https://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/viewt ... p?t=154648

Actually, it's a common user trick on the MS-20 to use the resonant HPF in this way.

yul
KVRian
973 posts since 26 Sep, 2002 from Montreal, CANADA

Re: What is the secret with Moog VCF?

Post Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:36 am

The resonance sucking up the bass is quite nifty, desirable and by design I am sure.

Low end comes from the osc's not the filter anyways... resonance doesn't work well in the lows...raising the volume is much better here.

As the cutoff sweeps back and forth with resonance, you get bass or not depending. Interesting when there is no HPF. as you have a bit of control over bass.

I prefer other styles of filters most of the time as I tend to focus on oscillator stuff anyways,

Look at other synths if you want another character...plenty of other styles out there both analog and suctractive.

AdvancedFollower
KVRian
613 posts since 8 May, 2018 from Sweden

Re: What is the secret with Moog VCF?

Post Wed Jan 29, 2020 1:27 pm

yul wrote:
Wed Jan 29, 2020 8:36 am
Look at other synths if you want another character...plenty of other styles out there both analog and suctractive.
This is why most people use more than one synth :) Different synths (whether hardware or software, analog or digital) all have a different character, even if they fundamentally have the same voice architecture (for typical subtractive synths anyway). Some high-end hardware synths and many plugins even offer multiple filter types so you can choose the most suitable one for what you're trying to achieve.

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