MSF Question: FM like in Sytrus?

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Tagirijus
KVRian
772 posts since 28 Jun, 2006 from Germany

Post Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:19 am

Hey there,

today I was playing around a bit in MSF' FM module. I noticed that the shapes are locked, while in Sytrus you can modify the shape of the OSC:

2020-02-06_11-09-19.png
2020-02-06_11-09-49.png

I also tried to use 2x OSC in the MSF matrix and FM them with the Merger module, but I could not get the sound from MSF, like in Sytrus. Am I doing something wrong or is there indeed a limit of MSF? :D

What I am trying to come up with:

https://www.tagirijus.de/clients/tmp/sytrus.mp3


Edit:
My MSF attempt:

Code: Select all

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The Sytrus preset:
https://www.tagirijus.de/clients/tmp/sytrus_growl.fst
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werzel
KVRist
352 posts since 25 Jan, 2016

Re: MSF Question: FM like in Sytrus?

Post Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:51 pm

Adding Custom shape (as found in the advanced tab of the oscillators) would open up the possibilities.

I toyed with your preset a bit and found that a 'near' recreation was easiest in MPS where we can have direct control over the harmonics.

I then tried the Merger approach to the oscillator generators and was able to fake a bit of a mod matrix.

Code: Select all

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The above is an MSF preset that has both of my attempts. All of the outputs are disconnected to begin with.
First, try the MPS that is in the FX tab. Adjusting the octaves of each oscillator, dry/wet% and depths of FM help to fine tune the sound. (The depths are actually being modulated by MOD1, but adjusting the range of modulation has interesting results.) Once you are fully disappointed in the results, go to the OSC 1 tab and enable the Unison and adjust that to taste.

Disconnect MPS from the output and go to the Generator tab.
We have 3 oscillators. I simply made a Merger for each one and then FM'd OSC1 with OSC2, OSC1 with OSC3 and OSC2 with OSC3. Listening to each individually and then different combos while changing the dry/wet%, depth, fm size and even the oversampling rates have interesting effects on the final result. As before, the Unisons for each oscillator introduce very nice results. Once you have something that you like, turn off the Unisons and try activating the new Analog module on the Global tab!

Add filtering and effects and you can probably get a lot closer to your original Sytrus preset. Combine the MPS and the FM'd oscillators and you can double your fun.

Hope this gave you some ideas, it wasn't really meant to answer any questions. :?

User avatar
Tagirijus
KVRian
772 posts since 28 Jun, 2006 from Germany

Re: MSF Question: FM like in Sytrus?

Post Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:59 am

Well thanks for the reply. I know all of the principles already (the advanced OSC edit feature is great!), still thanks. ;) ... and yes: I mainly was trying to achieve just the basic sound of Sytrus in MSF without any further effects - no goal to just make a cool sound. It is more some kind of scientific question after all.

The FM depth in Sytrus seems way different than in the FM module in MSF. I did some further tests to explain that I somehow think there might be missing something in the FM module:

Sytrus is very basic set up like this - only 2 sine OSCs:

2020-02-07_11-49-16_sytrus.png

and it can sound like this:

https://www.tagirijus.de/clients/tmp/fm_test_sytrus.mp3


Now the same approach in MSF with the FM module, set up like this:

2020-02-07_11-50-56_msf-fm.png

and it sounds like this:

https://www.tagirijus.de/clients/tmp/fm_test_msf-fm.mp3


Yay the same! BUT depth has to go up to 400%, hehe. No problem. But If I want to have more individual OSCs, FM is missing it. And I cannot recreate it with the merge module, as shown here:

The same approach with the merge module in MSF:

2020-02-07_11-49-36_msf-merge.png

and it sounds like this:

https://www.tagirijus.de/clients/tmp/fm ... -merge.mp3


1. Not that close and moreover, ...
2. ... I had to crank up the oversampling things a lot (and FM size). The CPU usage is 10x than the other two approaches!!


So basically: either I am nitpicky, or I am still missing something, or the FM module is lacking of more individual OSC source.
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User avatar
Faiky
KVRist
196 posts since 23 Jun, 2012

Re: MSF Question: FM like in Sytrus?

Post Sat Feb 08, 2020 2:12 pm

A sytrus user also reports here. It was the same disappointment that brought me to the ground here. No custom shapes, just prefabricated ones. The merge module seems to work differently somehow. Not only that you have to set the quality to maximum, but the latency can be enormous. When the voice pitch drops, the upper partial tones are missing, so somehow it is calculated in real time from the input signal and not with the waveforms themselves, I guess.

FM is also somehow the weak point of most synths. I just wish that MSF would at least give Synthmaster the edge, option between phase mod and real fm (but which is easy to build with a mod and it works as expected). Then there is the possibility of aliasing free Sync FM Tables.

But first and foremost the merge module needs to be optimized, I think.

User avatar
MeldaProduction
KVRAF
11918 posts since 15 Mar, 2008 from Czech republic

Re: MSF Question: FM like in Sytrus?

Post Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:03 am

Sorry folks, no custom shapes, at least for now. Perhaps some module with custom shapes may be made in the future, but no time now. And it would take way more resources, the existing curves are kinda superoptimized.
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User avatar
Tagirijus
KVRian
772 posts since 28 Jun, 2006 from Germany

Re: MSF Question: FM like in Sytrus?

Post Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:52 am

Ah okay, I somehow guessed that. I'll look into the future then. Thanks for you reply! :)
System: Win 10 64 bit / i9 9900K (8x 3.6 GHz) / 16 GB DDR4-3200 RAM / 1TB M.2 SSD + 2x 500 GB SSD / RME Babyface / FL Studio

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User avatar
Faiky
KVRist
196 posts since 23 Jun, 2012

Re: MSF Question: FM like in Sytrus?

Post Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:21 am

Are there any plans to optimize the merger? In very low octaves the latency is simply too much exaggerated. It seems to work like a vibrato in terms of sound. Like resampling.

And real FM (not the phase modulation) is possible with the custom mod (to mod the semitones) but not per voice. I know, per voice it would again consume too much resources. But in other synths it works as well, and I would rather have a CPU break than live without it :D.

I also used a key tracked LFO, but the attack of the sound sounds weird.
Okay, it works good with "follow note frequency" and best quality settings. But the quality settings for FM are still too low.

In such cases I like to create my own wavetable, ideal for alias free sync FM/PM. Maybe you can think about the render to wavetable function of Serum (Render OSC A/B Warp)? A one click render, records the note (A0 for excample) for 1/2/4/8 bars and import it as a wavetable.

User avatar
MeldaProduction
KVRAF
11918 posts since 15 Mar, 2008 from Czech republic

Re: MSF Question: FM like in Sytrus?

Post Fri Feb 14, 2020 3:12 pm

It's not really a latency, it's simply the response of the curves - FM by merger cannot really see the future, so it works as a very fast sample driven vibrato, so it needs to actually have the samples recorded... So there's nothing to optimize really.
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