NI have announced they will no longer activate discontinued products

[EvilDragon]

It’s very simple. We as customers buy our audio tools to own.

You don't ever own software. You get a license to use it. There's a difference.

[noiseboyuk]

And who knows what will happen to Native Access when management decide that's too onerous to maintain and they need some other system for their new products.

I think this really is the crux of the issue, and what perhaps NI are now waking up to. Folks generally understand that OSs evolve constantly, that as the years and decades roll by its inevitable that plugins themselves have to evolve or be abandoned. What is sort of new here is that the whole issue of copy protection is over and above this.

The broad principle of CP on permanent products is very simple - "we need to protect from piracy but you, the user, will always have the right to use it". The moment someone adds "well, at least for a while" to that sentance, the whole thing sort of collapses. There's been so much talk on KVR and others over the years about CP and the inherant dangers of it, but I find there's been very few cases where the possible horror scenarios have actually come to pass. People might find it doesn't fit into their workflow - such as online only activation - and that's a big deal for sure, but I don't know of many (actually any) cases where a company has collapsed and their products no longer work for customers who need to re-install as a result. Someone will now prove me wrong no doubt, but cases are surely few and far between?

That's why this is such a big deal. Putting, effectively, an expiry date on an authorisation system really cuts into the heart of CP in general, and a huge part of the VI and sample-market is CP-based. The theoretical risk suddenly became a real-world one.

Good on NI for waking up to this, even if it is a little late in the day. Their customers need to know that of all the issues they may have with products over the years, ongoing licensing isn't one of them.

[0degree]

Although I'm not affected (this time) it really worries me about some other products which I might lose access to. What happens if NI decides that Absynth 5 or FM8 are too old and troublesome to maintain (hello non resizable UIs...) and just cuts them off?

So you can't see the difference between current products and obsolete products? When was the last time any of the products they are discontinuing were available to purchase? Most of them are older versions of current products and the others have not been available for some time.

What does purchase availability has to do anything with that? Did you read what I said above?
Even if there was a path for upgrade nobody should be stopped from using older products only because of copy protection mechanisms. What if Absynth5 all of a sudden becomes "obsolete" ?

[JJ_Jettflow]

General observation - much of this thread is still arguing and positing things that are no longer relevant, given NI's change of stance. General prediction - this will continue.

The thread was never relevant. It is just another dev bashing thread just like the ones started against Plugin Alliance, IK Multimedia, Slate, iLok, Disco DSP and a host of other companies that are targeted for attack here for no apparent or legitimate reason.

The fact is that all titles from NI that are being discontinued have either been superseded by newer versions or have not been available for quite some time. Threads like this are an embarrassment for KVR and should be locked immediately by the mods because there are no real discussions going on in them. It is just cyberbullying.

[noiseboyuk]

(as an addendum to my post above, my personal guess / reading of the runes is that NI are looking to figure out a way to translate an old and obsolete authorisation system into a current one, so that going forward they can ditch the old but customers aren't adversely affected. This would make complete sense from a wider perspective for them, in that if they can do this ongoing they actually have less systems to keep maintining as each years' OS changes roll by. I think there may have been 4 or 5 iterations of CP for them over the years - if they could figure out a way to roll it all into the latest, I'd have thought it was a big win for them and their customers).

[noiseboyuk]

The thread was never relevant. It is just another dev bashing thread just like the ones started against Plugin Alliance, IK Multimedia, Slate, iLok, Disco DSP and a host of other companies that are targeted for attack here for no apparent or legitimate reason.

The fact is that all titles from NI that are being discontinued have either been superseded by newer versions or have not been available for quite some time. Threads like this are an embarrassment for KVR and should be locked immediately by the mods because there are no real discussions going on in them. It is just cyberbullying.

That does read completely wrong to me. Yes of course there's a bunch of old grievances being aired here - it is KVR after all - but its demonstrably false that it serves no function. Within 24 hours, NI are going back to the drawing board because of this thread and on their equivalents other forums. And for more than a few (not all), the conversation has definitely moved forward as things have changed.

[Matt_NI]

That's actually not accurate. For example, as soon as you login to Native Access you accept our EULA. You can find the mention on top of your login screen.
Also I'm not sure anyone here has access to EULA they agreed upon back in 2000.

Seriously, while I kind of appreciate that NI is adressing the issue ("kind of" because this could and *should* have been happening way earlier - at least *way* before pulling off this recent stunt), I'd appreciate it even more if you'd do your homework. Sorry, I don't want to sound rude or anything, but what you've just wrote is plain nonsense and won't even remotely hold any legal water.
Whatever the new EULAs look like today in Native Access is completely (!) irrelevant to older products.
And as far as access to older EULAs goes, they will pop up as soon as you install a NI product from an older installation medium. And these are the only EULAs valid for that very product, there's no way around it.

To give you a pretty blunt example: If you purchase something with a 3 year warranty, this is what you will get. It doesn't even remotely matter whether you change that to just 6 months for follow up products after one year, the original product will still have 3 years of warranty.

Besides, I absolutely don't understand why you bring up Native Access at all. I mean, the products affected are those that apparently can't be registered through Native Access.

Native Access is still activating a lot of the products we have listed. Some users do not even use Service Center at all and so I want to make it clear that this is also affecting user that are using NA today. It's important to understand that the issue is with the activation mechanisms and we are not just dropping a bunch of products working perfectly fine today.

[Vertion]

It’s very simple. We as customers buy our audio tools to own.

You don't ever own software. You get a license to use it. There's a difference.

While that is technically true due to clever legalism, this is not how most customers see it and do not intrisically agree with it. The concept of ownership is deeply ingrained in human nature. Just look at the majority of these responses. People invariably will seek out solutions they feel they can have control over, especially where expenditures are required.

[Gamma-UT]

but I find there's been very few cases where the possible horror scenarios have actually come to pass. People might find it doesn't fit into their workflow - such as online only activation - and that's a big deal for sure, but I don't know of many (actually any) cases where a company has collapsed and their products no longer work for customers who need to re-install as a result. Someone will now prove me wrong no doubt, but cases are surely few and far between?

It's typically the smaller players who do C/R who provide the examples. They flame out, the activation server gets disconnected and it's game over. But because they didn't ship big numbers, the conflagration isn't that big. It's mostly small devs who go bust or, in one case, get sent to prison

Audio Ease was probably the most egregious example of a largish vendor just going "f**k it" with their Rocket Science FX bundles. It was a hard-disk authorisation locked to a single machine. You had to email support to move it. Then one day, they just shitcanned support for it and told customers they were SooL. At least the newer stuff is on iLok so if they flame out one day, there's some level of continuity available (although it might get messy if PACE flames out).

On the other hand, when Apple bought them, Redmatica which did use C/R CP, released sunset editions that work with a simple serial. The tools no longer work in anything post-Sierra but you can access them on a machine with an older OS.

[digitalboytn]

You are hired Mr Harris...

Do you work pro bono ?

Ha! I'm sure that is probably a factor in their calculations, too - no one individual will suffer enough damages that it would be worthwhile for them to hire a lawyer. Most class action lawsuits would require a very large number of plaintiffs or a very large potential recovery for a lawyer to consider taking the case - neither of which I would presume are present here. We need a rich person who would fund the suit just because it is the right thing to do regardless of cost.

Well,when I said pro bono,I'm sure that we could take up a collection here on KVR...

A few nice incentives so that the opportunity would just be too good to pas up...

How about a brand new leather briefcase with your initials monogrammed in genuine 9 karat gold,a pair of matching cufflinks,a pair of spatz and a bow tie in your choice of colour ?

Of course,just like in the music industry now,your real payment would come in on the back end of the deal which we would split 60/40 in your favour...

With the billions of dollars rolling in from the punitive damages awarded by the court,you'd be able to toss in your day job and take a well earned rest

[Markus Krause]

NI could do this:

Release their own 'keygen' for the activating old products. The users could download the keygen and activate the products locally for themselves on their own computer. This way NI would not have to release patches for their old products and can switch off the activation server.

[imrae]

It's important to understand that the issue is with the activation mechanisms and we are not just dropping a bunch of products working perfectly fine today.

What's the difference from a user perspective?

[bharris22]

You are hired Mr Harris...

Do you work pro bono ?

Ha! I'm sure that is probably a factor in their calculations, too - no one individual will suffer enough damages that it would be worthwhile for them to hire a lawyer. Most class action lawsuits would require a very large number of plaintiffs or a very large potential recovery for a lawyer to consider taking the case - neither of which I would presume are present here. We need a rich person who would fund the suit just because it is the right thing to do regardless of cost.

Well,when I said pro bono,I'm sure that we could take up a collection here on KVR...

A few nice incentives so that the opportunity would just be too good to pas up...

How about a brand new leather briefcase with your initials monogrammed in genuine 9 karat gold,a pair of matching cufflinks,a pair of spatz and a bow tie in your choice of colour ?

Of course,just like in the music industry now,your real payment would come in on the back end of the deal which we would split 60/40 in your favour...

With the billions of dollars rolling in from the punitive damages awarded by the court,you'd be able to toss in your day job and take a well earned rest

Sounds good to me. Maybe then I would have time to spend on KVR and make music. .

[dellboy]

I have asked this question before but the FAQ on NIs site seems to contradict the answers I was given, so...............

What will happen to updates and crossgrades on May 31st if the qualifying base product is deleted by NI servers ?

At present if you sell a base product then updates and crossgrades become inactive.

Will the qualifying base product always remain in the users account even though it will not be able to be sold or activated ?

You can see on the article: “The discontinuation will not affect any update, upgrade or crossgrade paths. All of your updates, upgrades and crossgrades based on these products will stay intact”

No changes on that front

So in my case I have a boxed version of Kontakt 2 which I used to upgrade to Kontakt 5 and then Komplete 12.

When Kontakt 2 ceases to be on 31st May will Kontakt 5 still be a base product that I could sell along with Komplete 12 if ever I wanted to so that the buyer has a base product to put in their account to activate Komplete 12 ?

Or will the buyer of Komplete 12 crossgrade need to have a base product of their own ?

[chk071]

Not sure why you have to ask 10 times about this. I already told you that it won't affect your upgrades, and Matt confirmed it.