Harmonic minor mode 5, phrygian dominant

[Dazedanconfused]

Hi, I'm new so please go slow... OK so after many years I've managed to finally wrap my head around the modes of the major scale and using say the notes in CM can effectively create the patterns using its 7 notes and play all over the guitar neck say in e Phrygian, d Dorian so on. Also made good work the major and minor pentatonic to mix and create interesting stuff and again get around the neck using modes and petatonics. Now I' want expand and though I kinda get the modes of the minor scale since they just start with aoelian and follow the sequence, ok, but I have now been playing around with a few positions of the harmonic minor, I know phrygian dominant it's 5th mode is played off the 5th degree, but let's say I'm jamming over a Gm static and decide I want to implement said mode, as I'm riffing along, is it playing the notes of the D harmonic minor landing on "D" as my root and tonal center that creates a phrygian dominant, or like in other modes am I looking for G to create it? In other words, if I'm centering around D, am I plaYing d phrygian dominant or am I playing G harmonic minor or visa versa? Thanks

[valvecomposer]

Not sure what you mean by 'the modes of the major scale' Dazedan(d)confused. The major scale is itself a mode. Modes are independent things. If you use a mode in a mode, then this leads to confusion over the tonic. - Which can be an interesting thing.

As you'll know, the old modes can be played from any start note; just look at the sequence of tones and semitones that define the old mode you might be working in.

You say 'the modes of the minor scale', but remember that there are three kinds of minor scale: harmonic, melodic and 'natural'. The natural minor is the same as aeolian mode.

You mention 'positions of the harmonic minor', but remember they're not just 'positions'. There is a musical hierarchy: as part of a key scheme, subdominant chords tend to dominant, dominant chords pull to tonic chords. It's not just a 'flat' structure (thank goodness). Secondary dominants etc. also come in to play, which is what makes harmony interesting (when its handled with understanding). Learn about the cycle of 5ths (or 4ths if you're a jazzer).

What works in counterpoint depends on a shared scheme between the voices. That's the difference between heterophony and polyphony. After reading William Lovelock's books (1st/2nd/3rd Year Harmony), you might want to learn about Schenkerian analysis which relates everything pre-Debussy.

[jancivil]

The clear way to think is that the character of any real mode is founded on the internal relationships with its ‘tonic’. The matter of D vs G in the OP is cloudy, at least as presented.

You may derive the sound you want from a thing named as belonging to ‘D’ but turns out your real tonic is G. NB: Tonic is G or it isn’t. You have to have full confidence in your tonic or you’re not anywhere.

For example, Satie Gnossienne 1 has a tonic of F. The scale is C Harmonic Minor, basically, but if you’re conflicted (I don’t care, it’s just material) you can just say ‘fourth mode of’.

This piece is modal, it does so little harmonically; it goes to a iv chord and comes back. So the B in there relates to F, #4. It def isn’t leading tone of C. This cannot be doubtful.

[Forgotten]

Good to see you back Jan.

[jancivil]

I was that bored

[Forgotten]

I was that bored

Obviously!

[jancivil]

I’m waiting for a sale to close (long story, if I had paid attention 12 yrs ago I would have capitalized, but no) then I can buy a computer. There’s very little I can pull off with Garageband for iPad, it’s a PITA. Couldn’t justify 50 bucks for Cubasis, other than that it’s slim pickins.
Shelter-in-place with no place, and before I noticed somebody charging their phone at Central Launderette, there was literally nothing to do incl even looking at the stupid iPad
.

There’s nothing horribly wrong with ‘modes of the major scale’ as a concept, albeit historically it’s wrong. Dorian is the second mode of Ionian, but conceptually what it is is ‘Ionian is the seventh mode of Dorian’ is equally true.

AFAIK, the whole modalization of a minor scale (NB: ‘the minor scale’ has no sense, there are three things called that) gets started in order to derive synthetic scales, in largely jazz practice, while that isn’t usually modal music.
{IE: modalization here is just the practice of deriving 7 forms of a 7 note scale. The same thing is done with Bulerias rhythm, 12 versions of a 12 beat sequence (modeled visually via a clock).}


So, <mode of the minor scale> if the reference is natural minor is useless. Aeolian is the sixth mode of Ionian; Ionian is the third mode of Aeolian. There is no need for the term, it’s redundant; you have 7 modes of the 7 note series by definition.

OTOH, modalizing melodic or harmonic minor is another whole thing.
Fourth mode of melodic minor: C D Eb F G A B to F G A B C D Eb.
People like “Lydian Dominant” as a name. AKA “Harmonic” or “Overtone” scale. So, agreeing with F7 as a dominant harmony (of Bb or E if b5 instead of 5), it provides all of V7 9 #11 (if not b5) 13 in a row. #4 is the ‘Lydian’, b7 (+ M3) is the ‘Dominant’. “Jazz Minor theory”.

Back with the OP, G harmonic minor functions to tonic G. ‘Harmonic’ originally derives from the M3 of a D harmony, V, dominant to G. It can be a mode in modal music, no prob. If “centered on D” means D as tonic, G harmonic minor it isn’t. I wouldn’t say for sure what it is without hearing it.

[Forgotten]

Couldn’t justify 50 bucks for Cubasis, other than that it’s slim pickins.

I wouldn’t recommend Cubasis anyway. It’s overpriced for what you get with it - the included instruments are very poor quality compared to GarageBand, and the expectation is that you make in app purchases to get better quality ones.

[someone called simon]

There’s very little I can pull off with Garageband for iPad, it’s a PITA. Couldn’t justify 50 bucks for Cubasis, other than that it’s slim pickins.

You probably know this but in case you don't, the Audiobus forum is the place for all things iOS. Audiobus is an app, but their forum somehow became the default for all iOS music apps, including competing ones.

https://forum.audiob.us/

I don't do any music on desktop any more, that said my focus is towards playing live, and there's so much more interesting stuff for that in iOS land. But I've learned a lot by asking questions on that forum about what can and can't be done effectively.

So, this is just in case you haven't come across that resource...

[jancivil]

thanks for that

All I would want to do is have a host which can plugin a granular synth and control from MIDI, and export audio. Garageband for iPad is sehr awkward.

[jancivil]

You know what’s fantastic for iOs is Moog has a Minimoog app WHICH IS FREE. They came out with this for teh stay the f**k at home order.
and it’s incredible sounding

[jancivil]

The synth I opened in Garageband was not too shabby either. Alchemy, or something.

[someone called simon]

thanks for that

All I would want to do is have a host which can plugin a granular synth and control from MIDI, and export audio. Garageband for iPad is sehr awkward.

Well I would go for AUM for that! It's kind of like the mixer section of a DAW, but without a timeline. But you can record the output of any channel, and midi map anything.

Here's a video of the midi situation.

[Forgotten]

The synth I opened in Garageband was not too shabby either. Alchemy, or something.

Yep, there’s some seriously good stuff available for free, and some that aren’t too expensive.

I usually watch prices on https://appsliced.co

You can even set thresholds for it to look for an a per app basis, and email you if that threshold is hit.

[Forgotten]

Well I would go for AUM for that! It's kind of like the mixer section of a DAW, but without a timeline. But you can record the output of any channel, and midi map anything.

AUM work well with a MIDI sequencer like Xequence (or similar) sending MIDI to it.