Where to start for Jazz

Chords, scales, harmony, melody, etc.
Septimon
KVRist
379 posts since 8 Mar, 2008 from Berlin

Post Fri May 01, 2020 9:42 am

Here is a website where a person analyses and compares the solos on straight no chaser from the Miles Davis album Milestones
http://www.thejazzpianosite.com/jazz-pi ... jazz-solo/
my music:
soundcloud.com/septimon-band
blend.io/septimon

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Blackbeard5
KVRist
82 posts since 8 Apr, 2020

Re: Where to start for Jazz

Post Sat May 02, 2020 5:06 am

If anyone watched rick n morty


Snake jazz!


Do you have any snakes nearby


Sorry, i wont ruin this by posting «offtopic». Just ignore me and help the guy with whatever advice....

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jancivil
KVRAF
20026 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: Where to start for Jazz

Post Mon May 11, 2020 9:36 am

msf sadib wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 3:58 am
I didn't understand the example "making your i into ii" and the tonicize thing
Ok, you’ve landed on Cm, key of C minor but it’s not final. To keep the harmony moving you can decide, eg., Cm7 being ii7 of Bb you may now proceed to V7 of Bb, which may also be temporary, ie., Bbm7 is ii7 of Ab. So a secondal sequence accrues.

Tonicization is pretending any chord is, for purposes of procedure, the tonic; in jazz practice this is typically locating the ii of said chord & the V of the chord, in order to promote more drive internally.
(secondary function)

Let’s say the original is I, vi, ii, V, I. The procedure is do the ii-V of vi, of ii, of V.
In C: C; Bm7b5 - E7 - Am7; Em7b5 - A7 - Dm7; Am7 - D7 - G7...
I may be locatable @:
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msf sadib
KVRist
123 posts since 4 Apr, 2018

Re: Where to start for Jazz

Post Mon May 25, 2020 2:26 am

jancivil wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 9:36 am
msf sadib wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 3:58 am
I didn't understand the example "making your i into ii" and the tonicize thing
Ok, you’ve landed on Cm, key of C minor but it’s not final. To keep the harmony moving you can decide, eg., Cm7 being ii7 of Bb you may now proceed to V7 of Bb, which may also be temporary, ie., Bbm7 is ii7 of Ab. So a secondal sequence accrues.

Tonicization is pretending any chord is, for purposes of procedure, the tonic; in jazz practice this is typically locating the ii of said chord & the V of the chord, in order to promote more drive internally.
(secondary function)

Let’s say the original is I, vi, ii, V, I. The procedure is do the ii-V of vi, of ii, of V.
In C: C; Bm7b5 - E7 - Am7; Em7b5 - A7 - Dm7; Am7 - D7 - G7...
What do you mean by Cm7 is ii7 of Bb.are you talking about Bb major or minor? And I don't get the last example.if you just clarify it a little bit

kelvyn
KVRian
1127 posts since 9 Mar, 2008 from netherlands

Re: Where to start for Jazz

Post Mon May 25, 2020 2:53 am

I don’t know if this has been mentioned....
While it’s extremely helpful And probably very important to understand the harmonic foundation of jazz It’s also a good idea to think of what context they are put in. If you have been a modern EDM oriented producer/composer you will probably be interested in taking a more contemporary take on the genre.
Here’s a couple of very talented musicians and groups combining certain elements of jazz mixed with electronics and production - not too way out but certainly interesting:
Snarky Puppy - Kind of contemporary big band
Jacob Collier - A master of harmony
Laura Mvula - first album. Pop but with some interesting light jazzy elements
Moses Sumney - Fantastic mix of contemporary soul and jazz with incredible arrangements and production
Kendrick Lamar - The ‘To Pimp A Butterfly’ album is an amazing mix of hip hop and jazz elements

I’m sure there’s a lot more out there that I don’t know but I found these artists very helpful to understand how some musicians create contemporary using some jazz elements..

Have fun... You are about to enter a wonderland of harmonic colors:)

msf sadib
KVRist
123 posts since 4 Apr, 2018

Re: Where to start for Jazz

Post Mon May 25, 2020 7:33 am

Septimon wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 7:10 am
jancivil wrote:
Sun Apr 12, 2020 4:24 pm
So, the majority of what is called jazz is based in harmonic cycles, as the impetus was popular and show tunes, with chord changes based in ii-V (I).
premodern music is based on the classical cadence: predominant (IV), dominant (V) tonic (I)
in the key of C: this is F,G,C. you can consider the iim as well as IV as predominant, so ii - V - I is considered the Jazz cadence (stronger root motion than IV V I)
jancivil wrote:
Sun Apr 12, 2020 4:24 pm
Bebop introduced advanced chromaticism thru devices like the flat five substitute concept.
Jazz composers and musicians tend to seek for more tension, this leads to the concept of reharmonisation. Chords are changed to others that "fit" but produce more tension: for example flat five (tritonus) substitution: Any V7b5 chord is a rearrangement of the notes of a doninant seventh a tritone away: V7b5 = bII7b5 : G7b5 (G,B,Db,F) = Db7b5 (Db,F,G,B). Since the fifth of a chord is often omitted this relationship holds for all dominant sevenths. Any dominant seventh chord can be replaced by the dominant seventh a tritone away.
jancivil wrote:
Sun Apr 12, 2020 4:24 pm
So, take your G7 and flat the D to Db; now you have a dual function; G7b5 and Db7b5 use the same four notes. Gb can be an alternate goal to C now, full chromatic movement is enabled.
Why the fifth of the chord is omited?

msf sadib
KVRist
123 posts since 4 Apr, 2018

Re: Where to start for Jazz

Post Mon May 25, 2020 7:46 am

Septimon wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 7:21 am
msf sadib wrote:
Fri May 01, 2020 3:58 am

Can you please simplify what you're saying? They sound so informative.I'm getting really confused.I didn't understand the example "making your i into ii" and the tonicize thing
Tonicization also referred to as secondary ii-V progression
simplified version: any chord can be preceeded by a ii -V- combination (if melodic context fits).

For example

iim V I
Dm7 G7 Cmaj7

can become

(iim7b5(ii) V7b9(ii)) iim V I

Em7b5 A7 Dm7 G7 Cmaj7
Does the ii-v tonicization always has to be iim7b5 & V7b9? Or I could use any ii m(e.g m7,m9,m11) & V7

msf sadib
KVRist
123 posts since 4 Apr, 2018

Re: Where to start for Jazz

Post Mon May 25, 2020 7:47 am

kelvyn wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 2:53 am
I don’t know if this has been mentioned....
While it’s extremely helpful And probably very important to understand the harmonic foundation of jazz It’s also a good idea to think of what context they are put in. If you have been a modern EDM oriented producer/composer you will probably be interested in taking a more contemporary take on the genre.
Here’s a couple of very talented musicians and groups combining certain elements of jazz mixed with electronics and production - not too way out but certainly interesting:
Snarky Puppy - Kind of contemporary big band
Jacob Collier - A master of harmony
Laura Mvula - first album. Pop but with some interesting light jazzy elements
Moses Sumney - Fantastic mix of contemporary soul and jazz with incredible arrangements and production
Kendrick Lamar - The ‘To Pimp A Butterfly’ album is an amazing mix of hip hop and jazz elements

I’m sure there’s a lot more out there that I don’t know but I found these artists very helpful to understand how some musicians create contemporary using some jazz elements..

Have fun... You are about to enter a wonderland of harmonic colors:)
Thanks a lot.I'm actually coming from edm scene

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jancivil
KVRAF
20026 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: Where to start for Jazz

Post Mon May 25, 2020 9:21 am

msf sadib wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 7:33 am
jancivil wrote:
Sun Apr 12, 2020 4:24 pm
So, take your G7 and flat the D to Db; now you have a dual function; G7b5 and Db7b5 use the same four notes. Gb can be an alternate goal to C now, full chromatic movement is enabled.
Why the fifth of the chord is omited?
The fifth of G7b5 is Db; the fifth of Db7b5 is effectively G, however its proper spelling will be Abb. I gave the reason, it promotes chromaticism.
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jancivil
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20026 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: Where to start for Jazz

Post Mon May 25, 2020 9:33 am

msf sadib wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 2:26 am
What do you mean by Cm7 is ii7 of Bb.are you talking about Bb major or minor? And I don't get the last example.if you just clarify it a little bit
ii7 of Bb minor is C Eb Gb Bb. ii7 of Bb is C Eb G Bb. The point is “ii of __”, either way. You must be able to identify these things immediately as a prerequisite to jazz.
(I would never simply write “Bb” for Bb minor.)

Basis is I vi ii V. These are in bold, below.
In C: C; Bm7b5 - E7 - Am7; Em7b5 - A7 - Dm7; Am7 - D7 - G7...

with a ii and V placed before them, as though each of the four was “I”, ie., tonicized. To talk more explicitly we’d say ii of vi, V of vi etc.
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jancivil
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20026 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: Where to start for Jazz

Post Mon May 25, 2020 9:38 am

The difference between ii or V with a perfect fifth vs diminished (flat) fifth is style-bound, the flat five first happens ca 1947.
A defining feature of the bebop school of thought. Another reason is more tension.
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jancivil
KVRAF
20026 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: Where to start for Jazz

Post Mon May 25, 2020 10:09 am

So, I wasn’t omitting the fifth in my examples. However, omitting perfect fifths is not only common but a feature/not a bug. Both guitarists and pianists do it. Actually the P fifth is kind of thick texturally for the taller extensions (eg., 9th and so on).

EG (these are chords, vertical constructs, bottom to top):
E D G A; Eb Db G ‘A‘; D C F G; Db Cb F ‘G’; C Bb Eb F; ‘B A D E’ (Cb Bbb Ebb Fb)
ii7(11) - bII7(#11) of D, then of C, then of Bb

the fifths of the dominant chords (bII7 is given) may be considered as missing, or we may consider the alternate names (flat five substitute principle), ie., V7, use the flat five.
IE: the second chord listed is technically both Eb7 and A7.
(Albeit “bII” is specified, as more normal due to the voicing there.)

The takeaway is, Eb7(#11) and A7b5 both function as dominant of D or D minor.
This illustration combines the “i is the new ii”, flat five principle, and omitting P5 at least as pertains to a m7. Modern jazz kind of prefers a dominant flat five, aesthetically.

Yes, this is complex. It has to be; this is what you’re in for. But to *start*, get your recognition of chords up to speed. For you, not being an instrumentalist, this means recognizing names and types by sight, and by ear.

You could clarify what your goals are. You have to have an instrument to do jazz.

This is going to fly by you right now, but I’m giving a condensed presentation of a whole thing.
Last edited by jancivil on Mon May 25, 2020 3:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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jancivil
KVRAF
20026 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from No Location

Re: Where to start for Jazz

Post Mon May 25, 2020 10:11 am

:lol: at downvoting me giving the majority of my morning to this.
beyond pathetic. OMFG a total fuckng schlemiel doesn’t like me. express yo self, do, tho.

go fight about plugins FFS, stay in your lane. :arrow:
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msf sadib
KVRist
123 posts since 4 Apr, 2018

Re: Where to start for Jazz

Post Mon May 25, 2020 9:33 pm

jancivil wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 10:11 am
:lol: at downvoting me giving the majority of my morning to this.
beyond pathetic. OMFG a total fuckng schlemiel doesn’t like me. express yo self, do, tho.

go fight about plugins FFS, stay in your lane. :arrow:
I can't believe someone did that :(. What's wrong with these people.are they jelous or what that you possess this vast knowledge regarding music.You've been the one of the best resourceful person.Keep doing what you're doing.and don't give a shit about those pathetic persons.

msf sadib
KVRist
123 posts since 4 Apr, 2018

Re: Where to start for Jazz

Post Mon May 25, 2020 9:52 pm

jancivil wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 9:33 am
msf sadib wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 2:26 am
What do you mean by Cm7 is ii7 of Bb.are you talking about Bb major or minor? And I don't get the last example.if you just clarify it a little bit
ii7 of Bb minor is C Eb Gb Bb. ii7 of Bb is C Eb G Bb. The point is “ii of __”, either way. You must be able to identify these things immediately as a prerequisite to jazz.
(I would never simply write “Bb” for Bb minor.)

Basis is I vi ii V. These are in bold, below.
In C: C; Bm7b5 - E7 - Am7; Em7b5 - A7 - Dm7; Am7 - D7 - G7...

with a ii and V placed before them, as though each of the four was “I”, ie., tonicized. To talk more explicitly we’d say ii of vi, V of vi etc.
Questions:
1)Is tritone substitution & flat five substitution the same thing?

2) In the last tonicized chord( G7) why did you use Am7 and not Am7b5?is it because dominant chord has major triad in it?so the ii of G is a minor chord

3)Can tonicization be done other than ii-v progression?

4)Can I do jazz progressions in other modes? will even if so will it sound jazzy?
Last edited by msf sadib on Tue May 26, 2020 2:02 am, edited 4 times in total.

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