Where to start for Jazz

[BertKoor]

I got lost in the Seven-of-Nine blabla as well. Then I took my guitar and played the chords. It made much more sense! So maybe it's a good idea to work with concrete examples.

Basis is I vi ii V.

Those are basically the chords of "La Mer" and "Always Look At The Bright Side Of Life" !!

C; Bm7b5 - E7 - Am7; Em7b5 - A7 - Dm7; Am7 - D7 - G7...

Now I understand why my second guitar teacher started me with "Autumn Leaves", but he did not tell me anything about tonicization.

[msf sadib]

I got lost in the Seven-of-Nine blabla as well. Then I took my guitar and played the chords. It made much more sense! So maybe it's a good idea to work with concrete examples.

Basis is I vi ii V.

Those are basically the chords of "La Mer" and "Always Look At The Bright Side Of Life" !!

C; Bm7b5 - E7 - Am7; Em7b5 - A7 - Dm7; Am7 - D7 - G7...

Now I understand why my second guitar teacher started me with "Autumn Leaves", but he did not tell me anything about tonicization.

Do you know why each tonicized chord's ii is expressed here as minor 7 flat 5?

[BertKoor]

I have no answers to the why. But I do recognise the following as a common jazzy progression:

Code: Select all

| Dm    G7      | Cmaj7   Fmaj7  |
| Bm7b5 E7      | Am      A7     |

It occurs several times (transposed, maybe a variation) in this piece:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0NVStTZ9Z8

[NERF_PROTOSS]

m7b5 is ii in minor keys, m7 is ii in major keys, thus m7b5 is common when you have a ii-V going to a minor chord.

of course it doesn't have to be m7b5, in the same way that not every V7 chord in major has to be unaltered. the m7b5 just gives our ears the expectation of a resolution to minor.

[NERF_PROTOSS]

I have no answers to the why. But I do recognise the following as a common jazzy progression:

Code: Select all

| Dm    G7      | Cmaj7   Fmaj7  |
| Bm7b5 E7      | Am      A7     |

ii-V in a major key, ii-V in the relative minor. also pretty much the gist of Autumn Leaves.

notice the difference if you play, say, Bm9 instead. the C# and F# are pretty spicy because everything happening before puts us in C-major-brain. but in another context, Bm9 might just be a pretty chord.

[kelvyn]

Funny how this thread has become a theoretic jazz duel when all the OP asked was for some tips for a newbie interested in incorporating some jazz chord/styles into his repertoire.

[NERF_PROTOSS]

Funny how this thread has become a theoretic jazz duel when all the OP asked was for some tips for a newbie interested in incorporating some jazz chord/styles into his repertoire.

... he also asked why m7b5 and not m7, which is what I answered. there's no "theoretic jazz duel" happening here

if we didn't want to talk about theory in the theory forum and just provide advice on incorporating styles we could simply delete all of these threads and replace them with a sticky that says "go transcribe music"

[The Noodlist]

Here's some free jazz guitar resources.
https://www.jazzguitar.be/ has a lot of free articles.

---

Jen Larsen.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqepSC ... zHxEEUNvlg
https://jenslarsen.nl/lessons-2/

[Septimon]

So, the majority of what is called jazz is based in harmonic cycles, as the impetus was popular and show tunes, with chord changes based in ii-V (I).

premodern music is based on the classical cadence: predominant (IV), dominant (V) tonic (I)
in the key of C: this is F,G,C. you can consider the iim as well as IV as predominant, so ii - V - I is considered the Jazz cadence (stronger root motion than IV V I)

Bebop introduced advanced chromaticism thru devices like the flat five substitute concept.

Jazz composers and musicians tend to seek for more tension, this leads to the concept of reharmonisation. Chords are changed to others that "fit" but produce more tension: for example flat five (tritonus) substitution: Any V7b5 chord is a rearrangement of the notes of a doninant seventh a tritone away: V7b5 = bII7b5 : G7b5 (G,B,Db,F) = Db7b5 (Db,F,G,B). Since the fifth of a chord is often omitted this relationship holds for all dominant sevenths. Any dominant seventh chord can be replaced by the dominant seventh a tritone away.

So, take your G7 and flat the D to Db; now you have a dual function; G7b5 and Db7b5 use the same four notes. Gb can be an alternate goal to C now, full chromatic movement is enabled.

Why the fifth of the chord is omited?

I have to clarify: the perfect fifth is often omitted. Because the perfect fifth does not define the chord. A Third can define wether a chord is major or minor, a seventh can be A major seventh or minor seventh. The (Perfect) fifth is just fifth and is Therefore often omitted. if it’s altered (E.g. flat) It does define the chord (distinguishes it from other chords) and is needed to define the sound

[Septimon]

Can you please simplify what you're saying? They sound so informative.I'm getting really confused.I didn't understand the example "making your i into ii" and the tonicize thing

Tonicization also referred to as secondary ii-V progression
simplified version: any chord can be preceeded by a ii -V- combination (if melodic context fits).

For example

iim V I
Dm7 G7 Cmaj7

can become

(iim7b5(ii) V7b9(ii)) iim V I

Em7b5 A7 Dm7 G7 Cmaj7

Does the ii-v tonicization always has to be iim7b5 & V7b9? Or I could use any ii m(e.g m7,m9,m11) & V7

It has to be b5 when leading to a minor chord.

[Septimon]

What do you mean by Cm7 is ii7 of Bb.are you talking about Bb major or minor? And I don't get the last example.if you just clarify it a little bit

ii7 of Bb minor is C Eb Gb Bb. ii7 of Bb is C Eb G Bb. The point is “ii of __”, either way. You must be able to identify these things immediately as a prerequisite to jazz.
(I would never simply write “Bb” for Bb minor.)

Basis is I vi ii V. These are in bold, below.
In C: C; Bm7b5 - E7 - Am7; Em7b5 - A7 - Dm7; Am7 - D7 - G7...
with a ii and V placed before them, as though each of the four was “I”, ie., tonicized. To talk more explicitly we’d say ii of vi, V of vi etc.

Questions:
1)Is tritone substitution & flat five substitution the same thing?

2) In the last tonicized chord( G7) why did you use Am7 and not Am7b5?is it because dominant chord has major triad in it?so the ii of G is a minor chord

3)Can tonicization be done other than ii-v progression?

4)Can I do jazz progressions in other modes? will even if so will it sound jazzy?

1.) flat five is the tritone
2.) yes
3.) the important part is the V, you don‘t really „need“ the ii before it. You „tonicise“ a chord by putting the dominant before it. Ears trained with western music will expect the Tonic to follow after the dominant.
4.) simple answer: yes, but I am not sure if „mode“ Is the term you are referring to here:
The most important thing about modes is: they tell you which tones you can use while improvising:
Easiest example for
ii V I
Would be:
Dorian mixolydian Ionian

[msf sadib]

What do you mean by Cm7 is ii7 of Bb.are you talking about Bb major or minor? And I don't get the last example.if you just clarify it a little bit

ii7 of Bb minor is C Eb Gb Bb. ii7 of Bb is C Eb G Bb. The point is “ii of __”, either way. You must be able to identify these things immediately as a prerequisite to jazz.
(I would never simply write “Bb” for Bb minor.)

Basis is I vi ii V. These are in bold, below.
In C: C; Bm7b5 - E7 - Am7; Em7b5 - A7 - Dm7; Am7 - D7 - G7...
with a ii and V placed before them, as though each of the four was “I”, ie., tonicized. To talk more explicitly we’d say ii of vi, V of vi etc.

Questions:
1)Is tritone substitution & flat five substitution the same thing?

2) In the last tonicized chord( G7) why did you use Am7 and not Am7b5?is it because dominant chord has major triad in it?so the ii of G is a minor chord

3)Can tonicization be done other than ii-v progression?

4)Can I do jazz progressions in other modes? will even if so will it sound jazzy?

1.) flat five is the tritone
2.) yes
3.) the important part is the V, you don‘t really „need“ the ii before it. You „tonicise“ a chord by putting the dominant before it. Ears trained with western music will expect the Tonic to follow after the dominant.
4.) simple answer: yes, but I am not sure if „mode“ Is the term you are referring to here:
The most important thing about modes is: they tell you which tones you can use while improvising:
Easiest example for
ii V I
Would be:
Dorian mixolydian Ionian

About 3)so I can tonicize like IV-V,Vi-V? Then why is ii-v tonicization is most preferred?

About 4) Suppose I want to play a jazz in a minor scale.But as I understand minor scale's II is not minor(rather diminished) and I is not major(rather minor).So how do I implement the ii-V-I formula in this case and also other modes like minor

[msf sadib]

So, the majority of what is called jazz is based in harmonic cycles, as the impetus was popular and show tunes, with chord changes based in ii-V (I).

premodern music is based on the classical cadence: predominant (IV), dominant (V) tonic (I)
in the key of C: this is F,G,C. you can consider the iim as well as IV as predominant, so ii - V - I is considered the Jazz cadence (stronger root motion than IV V I)

Bebop introduced advanced chromaticism thru devices like the flat five substitute concept.

Jazz composers and musicians tend to seek for more tension, this leads to the concept of reharmonisation. Chords are changed to others that "fit" but produce more tension: for example flat five (tritonus) substitution: Any V7b5 chord is a rearrangement of the notes of a doninant seventh a tritone away: V7b5 = bII7b5 : G7b5 (G,B,Db,F) = Db7b5 (Db,F,G,B). Since the fifth of a chord is often omitted this relationship holds for all dominant sevenths. Any dominant seventh chord can be replaced by the dominant seventh a tritone away.

So, take your G7 and flat the D to Db; now you have a dual function; G7b5 and Db7b5 use the same four notes. Gb can be an alternate goal to C now, full chromatic movement is enabled.

Why the fifth of the chord is omited?

I have to clarify: the perfect fifth is often omitted. Because the perfect fifth does not define the chord. A Third can define wether a chord is major or minor, a seventh can be A major seventh or minor seventh. The (Perfect) fifth is just fifth and is Therefore often omitted. if it’s altered (E.g. flat) It does define the chord (distinguishes it from other chords) and is needed to define the sound

So all sort of perfects like perfect 2nd,Perfect 5th,Perfect 4th they just color the chord and doesn’t have to determine harmonic quality of the chord?

[jancivil]

at downvoting me giving the majority of my morning to this.
beyond pathetic. OMFG a total fuckng schlemiel doesn’t like me. express yo self, do, tho.

go fight about plugins FFS, stay in your lane.

I can't believe someone did that . What's wrong with these people.are they jelous or what that you possess this vast knowledge regarding music.You've been the one of the best resourceful person.Keep doing what you're doing.and don't give a shit about those pathetic persons.

thanks
I finally wanted to express my disgust, as someone was following me around doing that to every post I made, typically within a few seconds of the post.

3)so I can tonicize like IV-V,Vi-V? Then why is ii-v tonicization is most preferred?

ii-V *is* preferred, but IV-V is close, both ii & IV being subdominant.
The reason is kind of a musicological question. Google *rhythm changes*.

as to 4), ii min7b5, which is the default chord-of-the-seventh in minor; used towards a major-quality goal as well

[jancivil]

So, the majority of what is called jazz is based in harmonic cycles, as the impetus was popular and show tunes, with chord changes based in ii-V (I).

premodern music is based on the classical cadence: predominant (IV), dominant (V) tonic (I)
in the key of C: this is F,G,C. you can consider the iim as well as IV as predominant, so ii - V - I is considered the Jazz cadence (stronger root motion than IV V I)

Bebop introduced advanced chromaticism thru devices like the flat five substitute concept.

Jazz composers and musicians tend to seek for more tension, this leads to the concept of reharmonisation. Chords are changed to others that "fit" but produce more tension: for example flat five (tritonus) substitution: Any V7b5 chord is a rearrangement of the notes of a doninant seventh a tritone away: V7b5 = bII7b5 : G7b5 (G,B,Db,F) = Db7b5 (Db,F,G,B). Since the fifth of a chord is often omitted this relationship holds for all dominant sevenths. Any dominant seventh chord can be replaced by the dominant seventh a tritone away.

So, take your G7 and flat the D to Db; now you have a dual function; G7b5 and Db7b5 use the same four notes. Gb can be an alternate goal to C now, full chromatic movement is enabled.

Why the fifth of the chord is omited?

I have to clarify: the perfect fifth is often omitted. Because the perfect fifth does not define the chord. A Third can define wether a chord is major or minor, a seventh can be A major seventh or minor seventh. The (Perfect) fifth is just fifth and is Therefore often omitted. if it’s altered (E.g. flat) It does define the chord (distinguishes it from other chords) and is needed to define the sound

So all sort of perfects like perfect 2nd,Perfect 5th,Perfect 4th they just color the chord and doesn’t have to determine harmonic quality of the chord?

Seconds are diminished, minor, major or augmented.
Seconds don’t really change the quality of a chord, except a 2 chord (per Zappa) aka Mu (Steely Dan) elides major/minor, no 3rd. mistake: MU has a major third by definition.
An add2 on minor for instance adds a sort of poignance, but function is not affected.

Fourths, stylistically jazz avoids a P4 on a major quality of any function (meaning both M3 and P4 are present), by-and-large. P11 or add4 on a minor chord adds lushness.

The point there is if flat five is the intent, there is tension otherwise absent, while P5 really doesn’t add anything.