Where to start for Jazz

Chords, scales, harmony, melody, etc.
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Can I do jazz progressions in other modes? will even if so will it sound jazzy?
If by modes you mean Dorian, Phrygian et al, there is no function in those; “jazz progressions“ are functional, ie., goal-oriented.

You’ll see things like ‘for the ii chord you want Dorian’ but this is total nonsense, ii refers to a I, the entirety of the progression is to a goal, major or minor I or i (or the *as if*, tonicized degree), full stop.

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msf sadib wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 8:04 am
BertKoor wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 7:15 am I got lost in the Seven-of-Nine blabla as well. Then I took my guitar and played the chords. It made much more sense! So maybe it's a good idea to work with concrete examples.
jancivil wrote:Basis is I vi ii V.
Those are basically the chords of "La Mer" and "Always Look At The Bright Side Of Life" !!
jancivil wrote: C; Bm7b5 - E7 - Am7; Em7b5 - A7 - Dm7; Am7 - D7 - G7...
Now I understand why my second guitar teacher started me with "Autumn Leaves", but he did not tell me anything about tonicization.
Do you know why each tonicized chord's ii is expressed here as minor 7 flat 5?
Well, I came up with that for that post, so...
there is more drive to the [putative] tonic: note well F to E & Bb to A.
Last edited by jancivil on Tue May 26, 2020 1:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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jancivil wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 1:28 pm
msf sadib wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 8:04 am
BertKoor wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 7:15 am I got lost in the Seven-of-Nine blabla as well. Then I took my guitar and played the chords. It made much more sense! So maybe it's a good idea to work with concrete examples.
jancivil wrote:Basis is I vi ii V.
Those are basically the chords of "La Mer" and "Always Look At The Bright Side Of Life" !!
jancivil wrote: C; Bm7b5 - E7 - Am7; Em7b5 - A7 - Dm7; Am7 - D7 - G7...
Now I understand why my second guitar teacher started me with "Autumn Leaves", but he did not tell me anything about tonicization.
Do you know why each tonicized chord's ii is expressed here as minor 7 flat 5?
Well, I came up with that for that post, so...
there is more drive to the [putative] tonic: note well F to E & Bb to A.
Yeah I reviewed your last posts Through & through and finally got the hang of that part :tu:

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:tu:

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jancivil wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 1:06 pm
msf sadib wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 5:33 am
jancivil wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 6:11 pm :lol: at downvoting me giving the majority of my morning to this.
beyond pathetic. OMFG a total fuckng schlemiel doesn’t like me. express yo self, do, tho.

go fight about plugins FFS, stay in your lane. :arrow:
I can't believe someone did that :(. What's wrong with these people.are they jelous or what that you possess this vast knowledge regarding music.You've been the one of the best resourceful person.Keep doing what you're doing.and don't give a shit about those pathetic persons.
thanks
I finally wanted to express my disgust, as someone was following me around doing that to every post I made, typically within a few seconds of the post.
3)so I can tonicize like IV-V,Vi-V? Then why is ii-v tonicization is most preferred?
ii-V *is* preferred, but IV-V is close, both ii & IV being subdominant.
The reason is kind of a musicological question. Google *rhythm changes*.

as to 4), ii min7b5, which is the default chord-of-the-seventh in minor; used towards a major-quality goal as well
So if I had to play in a minor scale I would play diminished-Dominant-minor(ii°-V7-i)formula?

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NERF_PROTOSS wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 9:27 am
BertKoor wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 8:53 am I have no answers to the why. But I do recognise the following as a common jazzy progression:

Code: Select all

| Dm    G7      | Cmaj7   Fmaj7  |
| Bm7b5 E7      | Am      A7     |
ii-V in a major key, ii-V in the relative minor. also pretty much the gist of Autumn Leaves.

notice the difference if you play, say, Bm9 instead. the C# and F# are pretty spicy because everything happening before puts us in C-major-brain. but in another context, Bm9 might just be a pretty chord.
Which C# and F#? I see C & F here

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msf sadib wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 1:53 pm[...] formula?
Excuse me for the blunt quoting out of context.
But I firmly do not believe in any "formula". Some modern genres might come across very formulistic, but there's more to it. Far more. Someone was first with an original idea, and later other people discovered what ingredients for that type of music are, giving birth to the formula.

Anyway, what I do believe in, is that music is a language. It has to be learned. First you learn to read and listen, understand what others say & write. In linguistics this is called passive knowledge. Only then you start to talk & write, expressing your own thoughs. In linguistics this is called active knowledge.

To make the parallel to your quest: how to make jazzy music? Well, start by listening to a lot of it. Analyse the chords. Only after you got aquainted with the used vocabulary, you might get ideas in applying that specific vocabulary as well. So different musical genres are different languages that need to be learned.

Listen listen listen, analyse, play along, anaylse, play along, listen listen listen, analyse, play along.
Maybe after some time you'll get some ideas of your own.

I know of myself I'll never get as good at doing jazz as others, because I don't spend enough time with it.

Oh, and then there's the what kind of Jazz question. Dozens of vastly different musical styles are nowadays all piled together and shoehorned into "jazz" while dixieland & hardbop don't really fit into the same pidgeon hole.

Just my 2cts...
We are the KVR collective. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated. Image
My MusicCalc is served over https!!

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NERF_PROTOSS wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 9:59 am
kelvyn wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 9:47 am Funny how this thread has become a theoretic jazz duel when all the OP asked was for some tips for a newbie interested in incorporating some jazz chord/styles into his repertoire.
... he also asked why m7b5 and not m7, which is what I answered. there's no "theoretic jazz duel" happening here

if we didn't want to talk about theory in the theory forum and just provide advice on incorporating styles we could simply delete all of these threads and replace them with a sticky that says "go transcribe music"
Oops! My bad! Sorry! Guess I’m just having a senior moment. Didn’t realize this was the theory thread! Damn! How did I get here?

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:lol:

I should say that I’m oriented to bop and subsequent jazz developments of the harmony.
Swing stylee, there was no flat five, more basic/diatonic harmonies, less color in extensions, a frequent use of add6 on major, particularly at a final I chord... many things. Corny things. ;)

I heard almost nothing but jazz throughout my childhood, so when I started looking at the mechanics of it at like 16, I had a firm sense of it in my ear. And almost none of it was pre-bop. My mother liked the swing era, my father had no time for it.

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msf sadib wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 1:57 pm
NERF_PROTOSS wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 9:27 am
BertKoor wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 8:53 am I have no answers to the why. But I do recognise the following as a common jazzy progression:

Code: Select all

| Dm    G7      | Cmaj7   Fmaj7  |
| Bm7b5 E7      | Am      A7     |
ii-V in a major key, ii-V in the relative minor. also pretty much the gist of Autumn Leaves.

notice the difference if you play, say, Bm9 instead. the C# and F# arepretty spicy because everything happening before puts us in C-major-brain. but in another context, Bm9 might just be a pretty chord.
Which C# and F#? I see C & F here
That’s a good point.

Bm9 is B D [F#] A C#. The ii7 of the goal, (tonicized) Am, is B D F A. Half-diminished (diminished triad/min 7) aka m7b5.
“in a minor scale I would play diminished-“ half-diminished more usually.
Melody is often a factor, note “C-major-brain” as well.
Last edited by jancivil on Tue May 26, 2020 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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jancivil wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 5:54 pm
msf sadib wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 1:57 pm
NERF_PROTOSS wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 9:27 am
BertKoor wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 8:53 am I have no answers to the why. But I do recognise the following as a common jazzy progression:

Code: Select all

| Dm    G7      | Cmaj7   Fmaj7  |
| Bm7b5 E7      | Am      A7     |
ii-V in a major key, ii-V in the relative minor. also pretty much the gist of Autumn Leaves.

notice the difference if you play, say, Bm9 instead. the C# and F# arepretty spicy because everything happening before puts us in C-major-brain. but in another context, Bm9 might just be a pretty chord.
Which C# and F#? I see C & F here
That’s a good point.

Bm9 is B D [F#] A C#. The ii of the goal, (tonicized) Am, is B D F A. Half-diminished (diminished triad/min 7) aka m7b5.
“in a minor scale I would play diminished-“ half diminished more usually.
Melody is often a factor, note the “C major brain” as well.
so you can play Bm9 instead of Bm7b9 as ii ?
“in a minor scale I would play diminished-“ half diminished more usually.
Melody is often a factor, note the “C major brain” as well.
I didn't get this part

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The use of C# and F# will tend to be jarring in <ii-V of vi> here, unless you’ve prepared it, and if it’s literally Autumn Leaves, the diatonic melody is not that conducive to it.

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jancivil wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 6:46 pm The use of C# and F# will tend to be jarring in <ii-V of vi> here, unless you’ve prepared it, and if it’s literally Autumn Leaves, the diatonic melody is not that conducive to it.
Jarring with chords of E 7 you mean? so even if I put ii-v tonicization I'm not allowed to use any minor 9th chord for the ii part?

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No, jarring with A minor and C major.

so even if I put ii-v tonicization I'm not allowed to use any minor 9th chord for the ii part?

No, it’s the context. The tonicization gives a minor chord as though tonic; ii of A minor is a diminished triad.

There are undoubtedly versions of Autumn Leaves which exceed this kind of proscription.

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or anything

This is not that, but it’s time to hear something.

https://youtu.be/rsz6TE6t7-A?t=260
cued up for the solo by Miles if you click on the URL rather than the thumbnail.

Transcription: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ks9aalfkafpis ... T.pdf?dl=0

It’s Adderley’s record, solo by Miles Davis featured.

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