Alternatives to mixers: TASCAM Model 16/24 A&H Zed R16, that has USB DAW integration?

[Mesmerized Angel]

(Thread simplified for stressed ppl; I am looking for an analog mixer with 16/16 or 24/24 in/out over usb/firewire conection, with at least 1-2 midrange eq, and built in compressors, that actually WORK over usb/firewire! <--- Please help!)


So, it appears I have 2 choices.

Either, I buy a 16/24 channel DA/AD converter that is plugged into my computer, and then buy a "regular" (non-usb/firewire daw integrated) mixer and plug all 16/24 channels into that, and then all those channels back into my computer via the 16/24 channel DA/AD.

HOWEVER, today I found out there actually are, at least 2, mixers that actually allow you to not having to buy an expensive 16/24 channel DA/AD converter, but instead allows you to; run all channels from your computer straight into an analog mixer, mix it on the analog mixer, and then back into the computer Sounds sweet, right?

HOWEVER.. I cannot find more than these two alternatives:
The TASCAM Model 16 or 24
The A&H Zed 16

The drawback with these two are:

The TASCAM Model 24:

* The TASCAM Model 24 (note sure about the Model 16 yet) cannot use the compressors when mixing this way! Blaaargh Why, God, why! The compressors apparently only work when feeding a live signal into the mixer.
Also:
* Only has 1 midrange EQ. I really want at least two. One could get around this limitation, I suppose, by chaining one channel into another on the analog mixer... but that of course sacrifices channels.
* I have yet to find information if the unit allows you to actually send back all 24 tracks SEPARATELY into the computer via usb, so one could further process them, OR if all the channels are always summed into a 2 channel output back into the computer. <-- Does anyone have the answer to this? Please respond, I am dying to know! (The reason I want this is that I want to be able to send most channels as MONO from the computer into the mixer, so I don't have to send many stereo channels, and thereby use up precious channels on the analog mixer. For example a vocal MONO track, and then add stereo delay and stereo reverb AFTER mixing on the analog mixer, so, like I said, I save channels on the analog mixer)


The A&H Zed 16:
* Does not have compressors
It does, however, have a sweet 2 mid range eq! Also, all the channels, from what i gather, can go back into the computer SEPARATELY. <-- Please tell me if they cannot.

So, my question is, do alternatives to these mixers even exist? With USB/firewire connection that works this way? What would one even search on a search engine to find them? Just searching for usb/frirewire mixer, brings up a lot of mixers which do not function this way, but instead only have a 2 channel INPUT into the computer, but no way to bring all the channels inside a computer into the analog mixer, and then back into the computer again.

Minimum requirements are: 1-2 Mid range eq, and built in compressors!

Thank you in advance.

[BertKoor]

There are other choices, let me tell you about the route I took.

A long time ago I started with just a SoundBlaster card. This was back in time when PCs could only beep, and you had to add a PCI card to get good sound out of the PC for games etc. At some point in time I added a second SoundBlaster. That had the effect that my PC now had two stereo inputs & two stereo outputs.
Then I added a mixer to my setup. Fairly basic one: Mackie 1604 VLZ. Four channels of the PC got into the mixer. Two were the main DAW mix for monitoring, the other two were a stereo channel I would process by the mixer (eq, send to a effect processor) and record back in the DAW on a new audio channel. I could also record four channels at the same time.
Next step was I bought an audio interface with eight inputs & outputs. The idea was I could do all the mixing on the mixer, maybe record a full drum kit.

Long story short, I discovered that I did not need that many channels. Just four inputs & outputs was sufficient for the way I worked: send a channel to the mixing desk and record it back. It's good to focus on just one thing while working on a track, and not get distracted by other things that could go wrong. So essentially I had best of both: recording in digital, analog processing per track, and sort-of "total recall" as they call it. If I wanted to change one specific thing, I could redo that step in the process and keep everything exactly as it was.

You might want the mixer to do the summing. Well, there's no magic there. Digital summing is perfect already. You get the same result by sending the whole main mix bus through the desk. But then we're at mastering stage. Just getting a decent mix is hard enough already.

The next thing I realised was that twisting knobs on analog gear sounds like fun, but the DAW does it better. There's so much more choice of excellent EQ's and compressor plugins. Even just the free ones give plenty of choice and pretty good quality. If you don't really know what you're doing, then it's a complete waste of money to buy expensive gear and plugins. Only when you hit the limitations, and you know for sure it's not your own skills that's lacking, THEN it's time to invest.

1-2 Mid range eq, and built in compressors!

Built-in compressors on affordable mixers are hard to find. The built-in ones suck big time. Not enough control. Get a mixer with channel inserts, and get a separate 19" compressor.

[kritikon]

As for the Tascam - I also can't tell if the USB connection is a general mix output to the DAW - the Sound on Sound review does say it can send individual channels - but somehow I doubt you can send all channels individually at the same time through the USB - far more likely it's via the mix outputs.

You did see the bit about the compressors being one-knob compressors? i.e. they must be bog standard ones, likely with default attack, release, ratio etc. It's possible they might have automatic adjustments to all of those...but I seriously doubt it, and really, if I were going to spend any kind of money expecting a decent mixer setup...I wouldn't touch those with a bargepole. You can't mix with them on that desk (they apparently only work through the analogue inputs - i.e. they;re designed for hw inputting into the mixer, not for what you want at all.)

As for compressors - you really need separate compressors if you want quality (as mentioned in the previous thread). You could maybe get away with 4 of them (if the desk has 8 channel groups - can't remember how many groups it has - was it 4 or 8?). But then you really will want to use some compression on individual channels. And if you want magical fairy dust - and that goes for compressors as much as mixers, you need to be buying quality ones, not vanilla cheapo ones - and I can GUARANTEE you that those Tascam mixer comps are not quality ones. You can buy multichannel compressors - certainly 4 channel ones can be bought - but price increases with it.

You mentioned Eq - you're right. 3 band Eq is not really what I'd call acceptable for mixers if you want to spend money to get quality. AND...Tascam never used to be considered quality - they might have improved, but I suspect their Eqs are average still.

The A&H will very likely have better Eq, and the Zeds have 4 band - much better.

"Minimum requirements are: 1-2 Mid range eq, and built in compressors!"
Again - do you realise what territory you're in there? You seem to want the magical fairy dust, so you need to get quality. A bog standard mixer won't give you any benefit, and no bog standard mixer will give you decent analogue compressors. What you're wanting is something along the lines of Trident etc. So add a zero to your price.

Alternatives? Not sure there is anything you describe at anywhere near your price. Digital mixers can give you lots of whizzbang possibilities of FX/compression etc, but it's all digital and absolutely no point whatsoever doing that. Your DAW already does that.

In terms of mixers - personally I would be looking at things like A&H at bare minimum for getting reasonable Eq. Tascam (unless they changed) are on the cheapo end for that sort of thing. Mackie are very bland, Behringer likewise (and quite woolly). Mackie tend to be reasonably quiet (which is essential) whereas my experience of Behringer was lots of crosstalk between channels. And I'm not dissing Behjringer - they make some great gear - I'll be buying some synths at some point, and some of their outboard is solid and reliable. I used to use Studiomaster back in the day - reasonable Eq but nothing amazing, not sure they even make mixers nowadays.

You want a decent mixer with compressors - 16 preferably 24 channel. Seriously, you need to up your spend considerably, sorry to say.

[kritikon]

Forgot to mention: Soundcraft are decent mixers. I like the look of the LXii range. $1400 seems to get a 24 channel version. No compressors of course. I think some of their budget models have DBX limiters on them but really - not useful for you, and they are the smaller budget ones. Unless you spend several more thousands, you're going to have to go the hw separate compressor route.
Off the top of my head, good mixers with good Eqs, AND compressors per channel and you're looking at Trident, SSL etc. Many of those only have bus/mix compressors anyway.

[Badgerlicious]

As for the Tascam - I also can't tell if the USB connection is a general mix output to the DAW - the Sound on Sound review does say it can send individual channels - but somehow I doubt you can send all channels individually at the same time through the USB - far more likely it's via the mix outputs.

You really should do some light reading before wildly speculating on features. The Model 24 acts as a 22in/24out audio interface. The outputs are all routed to their corresponding mixer tracks.

But I agree with your other points, this is not designed to be a main mixing console. It's a live mixer and multi channel recorder/interface in the low end of this market.