need a stereo widener

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Master the [ Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaassssssssss ]

So very wide it is
Bitwig Certified Trainer

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ElevateAudio wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 4:13 am
ATN69 wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 4:04 am
ElevateAudio wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:44 am
muki wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 3:26 pm +1 for polyverse
The free Polyverse widener is garbage. It turns your audio into a phasy mess. It would be hard to find a worse widener.
Really? ADSR doesn't agree with you and neither do I. Care to prove your point with some real facts?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QEWbRmlwqo
Yeah heres a suggestion. Use your ears. Put it on a stereo audio file, increase the mix level and then tell me it doesn't turn into a phasy mess. If you can't hear it then there's no helping you.

Addendum: I put this piece of shit back on my computer after immediately trashing it after trying it originally, on the off chance they fixed it or there was something wrong on my end. Nope. Put a dry drum loop on with this and listen to it it turn your drum loop into a phase shifted mess with mix levels of higher than 50%. If you're looking for a phase shifter then in your in luck. Otherwise this thing is useless. Back to the trash it goes.
Thanks for these facts and clear evidence :roll:
Win 10 -64bit, CPU i7-7700K, 32Gb, Focusrite 2i2, FL-studio 20, Studio One 4, Reason 10

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I'm going to tend to agree with the anti-Wider poster, your honour.

I won't go as far as saying Polyverse Wider turns things into phasey messes or garbage, but anything over 50% sounds unnatural to me, and at extreme settings the comb-filtering can really destroy your instrument. But sure, it mono sums almost perfectly and is free so.. either you like it or you don't - let's move on.

BTW Mathew Lane's "StereoDelta" is just a stereo comb-filter - so don't pay too much for it, or better yet do it for free with Melda MComb, or get Kilohearts Comb Filter when it's 9 bux. Or you can do it in your EQ if you have the time (save a preset).

Haas can be cool for earcandy (it really stands out way on the side) but mono is obliterated.

EDIT: Actually I lied. StereoDelta is a stereo combfilter when you add width, but when you reduce width below 100% it starts going "true mono", ie: not just turning down the sides but collapsing them to the centre. That's actually kinda rare.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkgzwX2KP7E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0f7kLzAhbTI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2_4UM2tIQk

Melda stuff has worked well for me. The iZotope freebie also works well. I use Melda mainly because I have MXXX, which contains nearly all of their plugins as internal modules.
My Setup.
Now goes by Eurydice(Izzy) - she/her :hug:

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I think I tried ALL (except one) of the best stereoizers in the near past.. the conclusion being, build your own from short stereo ERs put on the side channel and tweak them until it sounds good when soloed on S, L, R... or use 90 degree phase rotation on one of the L/R channels if you don't want the ambiance-like side-effect of early reflections.. These work well in a send-return config to control the amount of 'stereo' you need.. Of course, use these tools when you can't double track or add layers to complement the stereo image..

These tricks basically beat ALL of the other stereo maker tools I've used or tested before.

If someone mentions a better plug or technique, I'm listening! :)

Playing with phase rotation (to swap M/S channels) will basically get you to what DrMS does which is basically one of the few really useful plugs in this category on today's marked as I found one.

Another interesting one is StageOne (but c'mon :roll: what's with that impossible price?? , it's basically a 'modern' utility plug, nothing fancy)

When testing have a remote or shortcut to solo M, S and also L and R channels (all sounding in mono when soloed for convenience) to test what it'll do to the audio, you'll be surprised!

I'm afraid that I have to agree that the Polyverse plug although it sounds interesting at first and looks like a cool plug, at closer inspection the sound seems simply a haas delay put only on the side channel (basically everything you put on the side channel only will result in 100% mono compatibility ;) ) .. I guess what some people don't like about Polyverse (incl myself) is that it seems to be also increasing feedback to the delays as the slider is pushed more..

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^ forgot to mention the tool I use for stereo phase rotation: https://www.voxengo.com/product/pha979/
:tu:

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StageOne by Leapwing Audio : expensive indeed but sounds amazing and won’t do any arm to the audio. Mono compatible as well. Can be used during mixing and mastering the alike.
Of course, there has to be some stereo / mid-side / front - back contrast in the mix already for it to work its magic, but I haven’t heard a plug-in doing it as effortlessly and transparently.
Computer musician / Ableton Certified Trainer / Mastering engineer
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Some good suggestions above, as also is the insightful comment by 3ee.

In addition to the recommended plugins above (of which I own several and also the oldie-but-goldie SPL Vitalizer), I would add that the best 'appearance' of stereo width in a mix often comes about by judicious EQ boosts to the higher audio frequencies of the Side signal when using an EQ plugin that allows for M/S processing such as Pro-Q by Fabfilter.

I realize that many of you may already know about EQ boosts to higher frequency sounds when in Side mode, but the OP may not and this M/S processing point does not yet seem to have been explicitly discussed here.
This technique always works well for me when giving the appearance of a wider stereo mix and it also avoids any discernible phasing problems as the lower frequencies are left unaffected :)

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ElevateAudio wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:44 am
muki wrote: Wed Jun 03, 2020 3:26 pm +1 for polyverse
The free Polyverse widener is garbage. It turns your audio into a phasy mess. It would be hard to find a worse widener.
I agree. but that's why it's free

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MogwaiBoy wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 6:26 am I won't go as far as saying Polyverse Wider turns things into phasey messes or garbage, but anything over 50% sounds unnatural to me, and at extreme settings the comb-filtering can really destroy your instrument. But sure, it mono sums almost perfectly and is free so.. either you like it or you don't - let's move on.
Being the one who coined Polyverse Wider here....

As with many things: moderation is key. Personally I only use it on pure mono signals. And nowhere near the max. Just a few percentage points. And to me, it is effectively mono-compatible (and of course, free).

Anyway...

Generally stereo preception is based on perceptual differences (between ears) in amplitude, frequencies and phase of the spectrum. Some are the result of how we perceive distance and direction of a sound source . Others are more about how we derive an image for the "environment" or "room" based on stuff like dampening and reflections.

The phase difference in the real world is simply due to the fact that a soundwave may travel a bit longer to reach the other ear. But in the real world this will never be summed back to mono and offered back into each ear as one and te same signal.

Other differences could be caused by masking: your head is between the sound source and one of your ears (with a dampening effect). And the shape of the ear and how sound reflects of it and enters the ear. We can even detect high/low (elevation) and front/back of a sound source (where planar angle to the ears is the same). And try to guestimate the distance.

We are not very good at detecting direction (mainly based on phase diference) of too long or too short waves. We are more susceptable to mid frequencies anyway (Equal Loudness Contour). Making mid frequencies the most important for the stereo image. Though some "hiss" may create a feeling of room/width.

It's a complex matter. Many variables. It's amazing we can do all this by analyzing minute and complex differences in airpressure.

Stereo Perception and Sound Localization (at Audiocheck)
https://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_s ... csound.php

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Any specific widening tool set beyond 25pct needs a rethink.

Very little sounds cheaper and says "I have no idea what I am doing" than fake stereo. Sure all synth stereo is pseudo stereo but there are good and bad ways of doing it and relying on a plug in beyond 25pct is a bad way.

So apply a little if you desire and keep checking the mix in mono and ask if what you have done really sound any good (in both mono and stereo). If you are not sure always err on the side of caution.

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nilhartman wrote: Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:40 am StageOne by Leapwing Audio : expensive indeed but sounds amazing and won’t do any arm to the audio.
Well, won't do any arm but will cost an arm (and leg) :D

Seriously, there are TONS of tools out there. most are free, some cost money (little... or a lot - like the aforementioned StageOne, even at its discount price).

Usual suspects are all sort of simple mid/side encoders/decoders (like Toneboosters or Airwindows) ; mid/side encoders/decoders with some controls (like Voxengo) ; general purpose wideners (like Izotope Imager 2), general purpose wideners that are embedded within general purpose fader plugins (like HOFA or DMG Audio or Klanghelm), simple stereo wideners (like MStereoExpander) or less simple stereo wideners (like MStereoProcessor), side distorters (like Airwoindows spatial processors) and...
... well, just out of these you could assemble your own "FrankenSpatial" aux chain.

The real issue here is to know when "enough is enough" (not going overboard, losing the mid/bass info to too much side info - which will turn your audio into spatial havoc) and to check for mono compatibility - all the time.

On a personal note : I wish there was a tool which could have told me how much of the side signal is lost when switching to mono (with some stereo material it is unavoidable - like with what I call "winds from hell" - the sounds of "desert winds" which are pure sides effect - ie. can't be converted to mono and PERCEIVE the same aural effect. and it totally cancels itself out in mono), and the current mid to side ratio (level wise). maybe there is one, I don't know of such.

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Kinh wrote: Tue Jun 02, 2020 2:18 pm need something that dont produce no phasing issues. Also a short delay like the stock one in protools.
widening does not happen by magic tool but by concept.
which instruments should create width, and do they play something useful for this at all?
do you want harmony vocals to create width?

do you make a mono instrument wide? in this case you might pan it to one side, and pan a delay and/or reverb of that to the other side, and play with the balances and some band filtering.

should the width reverberate at all, or should it surround you with dry sounds?

one tricky tool is M/S compression at the stem bus. e.g., elysia alpha can do a lot. but its input has to be prepared well already, and deliver some separation.

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Best one Ive found and I love that's it's got a safe bass mode. :tu:
I wonder what happens if I press this button...

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You always get a Jedi come in and say "without narrow, you cannot have wide" but it's absolutely true. As cliched as it sounds, it is definitely a proven technique in making things wider: make other things less wider.

LOL-ish example but Hotline Bling is pretty much mono except for vocal reverb, until the breakdown and then goes super wide phaser - and the contrast is awesome.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxpDa-c-4Mc

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