Tips and Context for using Altered chords
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
Well, there are certain things in jazz contexts which are preferred, certain tensions for the type of harmonic function.
A tonic chord of the 7th shan't have a P11 or P4, but a sharp 4 or 11. The reason is primarily acoustics: the #11 is the fifth (or third partial) of the Major 7, which is the fifth (or third partial) of the Major 3. C E B F is comparatively less attractive. So the full extension of I is ^7 9 #11 13. Note that in more modern surroundings the quartal voicings, here eg., C F# B E (A D).
A minor chord as a ii function will go to the P11. Minor as i is sometimes minor/major 7, a poignant kind of feel but the melody should perhaps not violently disagree.
Add2 is a nice flavor, for instance B C E A as Am.
Dominant 7 type is also going to stay off of P11. Flat 13 suggests a minor quality goal. Typical in minor is a #9 - b9 which moves down to the 5th of i. E G# D with G - F to the E of Am. Quartal voicing G# D G (Fx = #9) C over E bass = E7#9b13. Move that down a semitone, G# D G C to G C# F# B is chromatic yet it's working as V7 to I7 (A7 9 13). CF: McCoy Tyner.
Quartal planing and congruence came to be a way to be more abstract, particularly in the chromatic playing out of the idea. G C# F# type is actually called the atonal triad in some circles.
I would tend to consider seven-note chords all the time (the full 13th) as a bit wearing, ie., be judicious and restrained, to where choices make a point.
A tonic chord of the 7th shan't have a P11 or P4, but a sharp 4 or 11. The reason is primarily acoustics: the #11 is the fifth (or third partial) of the Major 7, which is the fifth (or third partial) of the Major 3. C E B F is comparatively less attractive. So the full extension of I is ^7 9 #11 13. Note that in more modern surroundings the quartal voicings, here eg., C F# B E (A D).
A minor chord as a ii function will go to the P11. Minor as i is sometimes minor/major 7, a poignant kind of feel but the melody should perhaps not violently disagree.
Add2 is a nice flavor, for instance B C E A as Am.
Dominant 7 type is also going to stay off of P11. Flat 13 suggests a minor quality goal. Typical in minor is a #9 - b9 which moves down to the 5th of i. E G# D with G - F to the E of Am. Quartal voicing G# D G (Fx = #9) C over E bass = E7#9b13. Move that down a semitone, G# D G C to G C# F# B is chromatic yet it's working as V7 to I7 (A7 9 13). CF: McCoy Tyner.
Quartal planing and congruence came to be a way to be more abstract, particularly in the chromatic playing out of the idea. G C# F# type is actually called the atonal triad in some circles.
I would tend to consider seven-note chords all the time (the full 13th) as a bit wearing, ie., be judicious and restrained, to where choices make a point.
Last edited by jancivil on Fri Jul 03, 2020 3:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
Also note: the P5th is the least essential part of any harmony which has it, frequently omitted (as too thick).
assuming that things like your 13th have a reason to be, while the P5 is already there acoustically.
assuming that things like your 13th have a reason to be, while the P5 is already there acoustically.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 135 posts since 4 Apr, 2018
When you say that dominant 7 is gonna stay off P11.But dominant 7 doesn't have any P11 or P2.SO what picture am I missing here?jancivil wrote: Fri Jul 03, 2020 2:49 am Well, there are certain things in jazz contexts which are preferred, certain tensions for the type of harmonic function.
A tonic chord of the 7th shan't have a P11 or P4, but a sharp 4 or 11. The reason is primarily acoustics: the #11 is the fifth (or third partial) of the Major 7, which is the fifth (or third partial) of the Major 3. C E B F is comparatively less attractive. So the full extension of I is ^7 9 #11 13. Note that in more modern surroundings the quartal voicings, here eg., C F# B E (A D).
A minor chord as a ii function will go to the P11. Minor as i is sometimes minor/major 7, a poignant kind of feel but the melody should perhaps not violently disagree.
Add2 is a nice flavor, for instance B C E A as Am.
Dominant 7 type is also going to stay off of P11. Flat 13 suggests a minor quality goal. Typical in minor is a #9 - b9 which moves down to the 5th of i. E G# D with G - F to the E of Am. Quartal voicing G# D G (Fx = #9) C over E bass = E7#9b13. Move that down a semitone, G# D G C to G C# F# B is chromatic yet it's working as V7 to I7 (A7 9 13). CF: McCoy Tyner.
Quartal planing and congruence came to be a way to be more abstract, particularly in the chromatic playing out of the idea. G C# F# type is actually called the atonal triad in some circles.
I would tend to consider seven-note chords all the time (the full 13th) as a bit wearing, ie., be judicious and restrained, to where choices make a point.
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
What? 
I said dominant 7 type.
When a dominant 7 type has an 11th it's the sharp 11th. I should note that I have actually seen a dom 7 with an add P4 once, in a Wayne Shorter lead sheet (may have been a transcription). it was labeled (incorrectly) sus4; I'll have given that chord another name, as from a different root. Naming got a bit abstruse there.
There is no such thing as a P2.
Fourths and fiths are perfect (no other interval type is called that) or they're diminished or augmented from that; thirds, seconds and sixths are major or minor, and further augmented or diminished as larger than major or smaller than minor. 7ths are diminished (A to Gb), minor (A to G) or major (A to G#).
We don't say eg., 'doubly diminished 7th', A to Gbb is *A to F*, a minor 6th, and A to E# is an augmented fifth, conventional usage making the concept arguably not that elastic. A diminished third is rare but not entirely meaningless horizontally: eg., A to Cb in a scale such as A Bb Cb Db Eb F G. The 4th there is also diminished quality. Dim 4 in a chord, probably nonsense.
A diminished second? Probably just go for unison, A (tonic to) Bbb is probably not useful. Augmented 7th (eg., Gx per A), hard to imagine any use to that by the same token; ie., these are not abstractions.
I said dominant 7 type.
When a dominant 7 type has an 11th it's the sharp 11th. I should note that I have actually seen a dom 7 with an add P4 once, in a Wayne Shorter lead sheet (may have been a transcription). it was labeled (incorrectly) sus4; I'll have given that chord another name, as from a different root. Naming got a bit abstruse there.
There is no such thing as a P2.
Fourths and fiths are perfect (no other interval type is called that) or they're diminished or augmented from that; thirds, seconds and sixths are major or minor, and further augmented or diminished as larger than major or smaller than minor. 7ths are diminished (A to Gb), minor (A to G) or major (A to G#).
We don't say eg., 'doubly diminished 7th', A to Gbb is *A to F*, a minor 6th, and A to E# is an augmented fifth, conventional usage making the concept arguably not that elastic. A diminished third is rare but not entirely meaningless horizontally: eg., A to Cb in a scale such as A Bb Cb Db Eb F G. The 4th there is also diminished quality. Dim 4 in a chord, probably nonsense.
A diminished second? Probably just go for unison, A (tonic to) Bbb is probably not useful. Augmented 7th (eg., Gx per A), hard to imagine any use to that by the same token; ie., these are not abstractions.
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- KVRAF
- 26033 posts since 20 Oct, 2007 from gonesville
off on a tangent there, a bit. 
If by 'altered' means <as opposed to a default type of interval in the chord {G7b5, G7#5}>, one may note how
eg., in minor a V7b9 is not altered: eg., in C minor, G7b9 [G B F Ab] occurs in key. G7(9) in C minor is altered from the default, in-key 9th per V.
<An altered chord is a chord in which one or more notes from the diatonic scale is replaced with a neighboring pitch from the chromatic scale.> - Wikipedia
versus: <An altered chord is a diatonic triad or seventh chord that has had one or more pitches lowered or raised by a half step.> - some thing Google gave as the first hit.
kinda pedantic, but one strives for precision
If by 'altered' means <as opposed to a default type of interval in the chord {G7b5, G7#5}>, one may note how
eg., in minor a V7b9 is not altered: eg., in C minor, G7b9 [G B F Ab] occurs in key. G7(9) in C minor is altered from the default, in-key 9th per V.
<An altered chord is a chord in which one or more notes from the diatonic scale is replaced with a neighboring pitch from the chromatic scale.> - Wikipedia
versus: <An altered chord is a diatonic triad or seventh chord that has had one or more pitches lowered or raised by a half step.> - some thing Google gave as the first hit.
kinda pedantic, but one strives for precision