All the ROLI stuff is class compliant. Dashboard just allows you to change the configs, and Roli doesn't do MPE any different... it's just round robining notes through channels 2-16 with some global controls on channel 1, unless you change the config.tapper mike wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:44 pm Also important to note. Roli has it's own proprietary method of dealing with mpe as does RogerLinnDesign and other brands claiming mpe capabilities. Which is why they all supply their own drivers.
Polyphonic Aftertouch: why isn’t it always represented?
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- KVRist
- 315 posts since 4 May, 2019
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 14991 posts since 26 Jun, 2006 from San Francisco Bay Area
Well, as a guitar player you get really used to having full control of at least four notes at a time. Strings can be independently bent. Each not articulation can be different. I get infinite sustain with a built in Sustainiac system. Some very cool things can happen that way. I’m sure it’s the same with any stringed orchestral instrument. I’ve even seen hand drummers do really cool things by applying pressure after a strike.e-crooner wrote: ↑Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:30 pmThinking about it, AT is also pretty rare with real instruments. Once one has hit the key, string, drum skin or whatever, usually the only thing one can still manipulate to a certain extent is the duration of the sound. Most of the player's sensitivity goes into the attack, not the sustain.
I used to try and get that feel of control that I had with a guitar by using various MIDI guitar products, but the truth is, you have to play so stiffly and cleanly that any nuance in expressive technique just ends up screwing up your tracking, so you end up programming the sound to do all the expressive stuff. It sucks, to be honest. I gave up with that and just used filters and sustainers on a basic electric guitar, but that’s more of a paraphonic system. Then I bought a TS-10 and man, the polyphonic aftertouch just felt like I’d always wanted the Roland GR stuff to feel. I’m not even a good keyboard player, either. Now I have an even better polyphonic keyboard, and I can definitely not recommend it, because if you get used to it it will break you for life. All other standard keyboard controllers feel like they’re missing something. The Rise is great too, but a different deal and you have to have a different mindset when you play it.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 14991 posts since 26 Jun, 2006 from San Francisco Bay Area
One thing I noticed when I was shopping for MPE controllers is that there are very few good Linnstrument demos. Even ones from Roger sound bad. Something is just off about the performance in nearly all of them. I think I’ve heard a few really good ones. I’m assuming that means there’s a lot of effort needed to become proficient on one. The Rise, OTOH, I felt like in the first day of owning one I was doing stuff that seemed pretty good, and by the end of the week I felt comfortable on it. I know people don’t like the squishy bumps, but they feel right to me. Exactly right. If you don’t want the bumps on your way up the scale, it’s sensitive above and below them as well.
But why is this thread becoming about MPE? I’m asking about polyphonic aftertouch.
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- GRRRRRRR!
- 15959 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle
I don't really understand why any of this is hard at all. If MIDI can do per-key velocity I can't see any reason why it can't do per-key everything.
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- Banned
- 10732 posts since 17 Nov, 2015
at the same time?zerocrossing wrote: ↑Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:02 amWell, as a guitar player you get really used to having full control of at least four notes at a time. Strings can be independently bent.e-crooner wrote: ↑Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:30 pmThinking about it, AT is also pretty rare with real instruments. Once one has hit the key, string, drum skin or whatever, usually the only thing one can still manipulate to a certain extent is the duration of the sound. Most of the player's sensitivity goes into the attack, not the sustain.
- KVRAF
- 8828 posts since 6 Jan, 2017 from Outer Space
Its the speed and 8-bit nature of Midi. They could get 3 expressions into it, but pitch bend needs to be 14-bit and would eat way too much bandwidth on a single channel. That is also the reason why Steinberg believed Midi is doomed and put the per-key everything expressions into VST3 without Midi. They completely forgot, that there are performative ways to input notes into a sequence in Cubendo...
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 14991 posts since 26 Jun, 2006 from San Francisco Bay Area
Well, technically yes, though it’s not really done, but you can slide up an entire chord while you’re hammering notes, so... my point is more that notes can be bent independently of each other. I forgot that with your right hand you can also be partially muting some notes while letting others ring out. The end result of all of that is that notes in a chord can all end up sounding subtlety different in a way that playing a chord on most synths just can’t. You can do a little with velocity, but after that event, the ship has sailed. With polyphonic aftertouch, the ship can sail on.AnX wrote: ↑Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:58 amat the same time?zerocrossing wrote: ↑Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:02 amWell, as a guitar player you get really used to having full control of at least four notes at a time. Strings can be independently bent.e-crooner wrote: ↑Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:30 pmThinking about it, AT is also pretty rare with real instruments. Once one has hit the key, string, drum skin or whatever, usually the only thing one can still manipulate to a certain extent is the duration of the sound. Most of the player's sensitivity goes into the attack, not the sustain.
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- KVRAF
- 6804 posts since 20 Jan, 2008
Noumena wrote: ↑Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:07 amAll the ROLI stuff is class compliant. Dashboard just allows you to change the configs, and Roli doesn't do MPE any different... it's just round robining notes through channels 2-16 with some global controls on channel 1, unless you change the config.tapper mike wrote: ↑Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:44 pm Also important to note. Roli has it's own proprietary method of dealing with mpe as does RogerLinnDesign and other brands claiming mpe capabilities. Which is why they all supply their own drivers.
Then you don't know the linnstrument that well. The linnstrument can be set as per row or per note.
As for Roli there is a thread here which is 82 pages long at last count.
viewtopic.php?f=102&t=445951
Detailing all the issues associated with roli instruments. On the other hand with the slight quibble that the Linnstrument can't simultaneously send usb and midi out owners of the linnstrument are fairly happy with it.
Dell Vostro i9 64GB Ram Windows 11 Pro, Cubase, Bitwig, Mixcraft Guitar Pod Go, Linntrument Nektar P1, Novation Launchpad
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- KVRian
- 1287 posts since 25 Jul, 2009
The thread took a significant detour. I get what you're saying though.zerocrossing wrote: ↑Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:11 am .....
But why is this thread becoming about MPE? I’m asking about polyphonic aftertouch.
I think the same way about release velocity. Why don't all soft synths use it?
Probably for the same reason - because not all keyboards have it.
There's a reason why all keyboards don't have polyAT - it costs more, because more parts are needed.
But there's no reason for all keyboards that have velocity, to not have release velocity.
There are no extra hardware costs, because the sensors are already there.
Another detour - sorry about that.
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- KVRist
- 392 posts since 10 Apr, 2010
Different kinds of electronic music might have evolved had the readily available tools been more expressive.
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- KVRist
- 82 posts since 5 Apr, 2011
... come on, your not serious about it! Take a real orchestra, *most* of its instruments have some form of AT or another. As pointed out, even percussion to some extent. Notable exceptions: pianos, mallets, harps & the like.Thinking about it, AT is also pretty rare with real instruments. Once one has hit the key, string, drum skin or whatever, usually the only thing one can still manipulate to a certain extent is the duration of the sound. Most of the player's sensitivity goes into the attack, not the sustain.
As to the initial question: a *BIG* culprit I think is the Ableton-Live team.
Out of some obscure reason they have chosen to completely ignore PolyAT ever since.
Which is a real PITA!!!
- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 14991 posts since 26 Jun, 2006 from San Francisco Bay Area
Actually, they don’t ignore it. They actively filter it out. The odd thing is, it does receive polyphonic aftertouch from Push. You just can’t use it with plugins.dr_loop wrote: ↑Fri Jul 03, 2020 4:32 pm... come on, your not serious about it! Take a real orchestra, *most* of its instruments have some form of AT or another. As pointed out, even percussion to some extent. Notable exceptions: pianos, mallets, harps & the like.Thinking about it, AT is also pretty rare with real instruments. Once one has hit the key, string, drum skin or whatever, usually the only thing one can still manipulate to a certain extent is the duration of the sound. Most of the player's sensitivity goes into the attack, not the sustain.
As to the initial question: a *BIG* culprit I think is the Ableton-Live team.
Out of some obscure reason they have chosen to completely ignore PolyAT ever since.
Which is a real PITA!!!
Zerocrossing Media
4th Law of Robotics: When turning evil, display a red indicator light. ~[ ●_● ]~
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 14991 posts since 26 Jun, 2006 from San Francisco Bay Area
No, that pisses me off too. I use release velocity all the time. It’s especially great to control envelope decay time.felis wrote: ↑Thu Jul 02, 2020 6:23 pmThe thread took a significant detour. I get what you're saying though.zerocrossing wrote: ↑Thu Jul 02, 2020 5:11 am .....
But why is this thread becoming about MPE? I’m asking about polyphonic aftertouch.
I think the same way about release velocity. Why don't all soft synths use it?
Probably for the same reason - because not all keyboards have it.
There's a reason why all keyboards don't have polyAT - it costs more, because more parts are needed.
But there's no reason for all keyboards that have velocity, to not have release velocity.
There are no extra hardware costs, because the sensors are already there.
Another detour - sorry about that.
I think I was hoping that someone would say, “oh, it’s actually not a big deal to implement, they’re just ignoring it or lazy.” If it’s a major job, though, then I could understand it. I’m currently stumped that Obsession is MPE compatible (yay!) yet does not react to polyphonic aftertouch. Wut? OB-Xa V does respond to poly aftertouch, yet no MPE.
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- KVRAF
- 8828 posts since 6 Jan, 2017 from Outer Space
I have my LinnStrument always set to send channelAT, as most synths respond to that rather than polyAT. In MPE mode this doesn't matter anyway, as all Midi is allocated by channel to the voices.zerocrossing wrote: ↑Sun Jul 05, 2020 3:53 am I’m currently stumped that Obsession is MPE compatible (yay!) yet does not react to polyphonic aftertouch. Wut? OB-Xa V does respond to poly aftertouch, yet no MPE.
For Arturia, still not being aware enough of the importance of MPE, they had to implement polyAT for the CS-80, they are simply too lazy to learn new tricks... I guess the coders who did Pigments don't overlap with those who do emulations...