U-he Hive

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
User avatar
Urs
u-he
24598 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin

Post Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:17 am

Funkybot's Evil Twin wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:12 am
If you don't know how to use the Shape Sequencer or Function Generators just don't.
(or read the manual, or watch several youtube videos on the topic - yes it's a pretty novel approach, but it's hardly witch craft and it makes for a few things hardly any other synth can do with similar ease)

recursive one
KVRAF
4969 posts since 7 Feb, 2013

Post Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:22 am

exmatproton wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:00 am
In the end it results in WAY less click actions :tu:
I don't count mouse clicks or tabbings, to me the amount of it is not what separates a good GUI from a bad one. E.g. Virus TI GUI has separate tabs for oscilaltors, LFOs, filters, matrix, effects etc, but I work very fast with it cause I know what is on what tab and the tabs themselves look tidy and logical. I like Massive X GUI too for the same reasons, it does have tabs but it's easy to remember what is on what tab and how it operates. Hive's GUI is fine too, not because it's essentially one-page but because that one page is quite well thought for the functionality it has.

A bad GUI would be Poly Ana, it's also one page but it looks cluttered and poorly readable, hard to navigate.

I think the logic like "synth A takes 5 mouse clicks for this action and synth B takes only 2 so synth B is better" is somewhat faulty. When the grouping of the GUI elements follows the basic logic of designing a sound, when it's clean and easy to read and navigate, when the elements have conventional naming and functionality, when it's easy to remember where is what, it's a good GUI.

Also I personally much prefer mod matrix to any other way of making assignments (if I had to criticize something in Massive X it would be the lack of a matrix)
You may think you can fly ... but you better not try

User avatar
exmatproton
KVRAF
2786 posts since 25 Apr, 2011

Post Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:50 am

recursive one wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:22 am
exmatproton wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:00 am
In the end it results in WAY less click actions :tu:
I don't count mouse clicks or tabbings, to me the amount of it is not what separates a good GUI from a bad one. E.g. Virus TI GUI has separate tabs for oscilaltors, LFOs, filters, matrix, effects etc, but I work very fast with it cause I know what is on what tab and the tabs themselves look tidy and logical. I like Massive X GUI too for the same reasons, it does have tabs but it's easy to remember what is on what tab and how it operates. Hive's GUI is fine too, not because it's essentially one-page but because that one page is quite well thought for the functionality it has.

A bad GUI would be Poly Ana, it's also one page but it looks cluttered and poorly readable, hard to navigate.

I think the logic like "synth A takes 5 mouse clicks for this action and synth B takes only 2 so synth B is better" is somewhat faulty. When the grouping of the GUI elements follows the basic logic of designing a sound, when it's clean and easy to read and navigate, when the elements have conventional naming and functionality, when it's easy to remember where is what, it's a good GUI.

Also I personally much prefer mod matrix to any other way of making assignments (if I had to criticize something in Massive X it would be the lack of a matrix)
That is not what i mean. I mean, i don't hate UI's with (many) tabs per se, i just prefer a clean UI with the least amount of tabs, because that takes extra mouseclicks, thus time. Surely you'll agree on that.

Also, ofcourse there plenty of UI's with 1 page that are aweful and synths with a couple of tabs that are really good. And i even love to work with some synths BECAUSE they have tabs. A good example to me for instance is Falcon. The tabs on that synth represent different layers (depth) which is very intuitive (to me).

A very good example (again, to me) of a UI that isn't working for me because of the tabs (and the UI in general) is MassiveX. So much space is not being occupied by functionality (the LFO section is just stupid). Most of the tabs are there because of a faulty lay-out, not because they wanted to add functionality, which, to me, is just a bad decision.

p.s.; i agree on Poly ANA for sure. That is just a very bad, 1 page UI. Luckily Ingo made a 'flat' skin that works pretty good!
Last edited by exmatproton on Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

Funkybot's Evil Twin
KVRAF
7444 posts since 16 Aug, 2006

Post Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:51 am

Urs wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:17 am
Funkybot's Evil Twin wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:12 am
If you don't know how to use the Shape Sequencer or Function Generators just don't.
(or read the manual, or watch several youtube videos on the topic - yes it's a pretty novel approach, but it's hardly witch craft and it makes for a few things hardly any other synth can do with similar ease)
Hey, I hear ya. My ignore it comment was more for the folks who say "Hive 1 was good, Hive 2 had too much and I stopped using it." Like...just ignore that stuff then. Revisit at a later date.

The FG's are great, but they can be tricky to conceptualize when you start doing things like using the "Still" of FG1 as the input for the A/D Env of FG2 and then use FG2 Env to modulate something like reverb mix. If you're mostly a preset player or someone who prioritizes composition over synthesis/sound design, I can get why you may not want to bother with trying to figure that type of stuff out. What I don't understand, is why people who would fall into that camp wouldn't just ignore that stuff. It's great for those who want it and get it, and if you don't, just don't touch it.

original flipper
KVRAF
2479 posts since 14 Sep, 2003 from Essex

Post Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:22 am

Hi

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeUH33qF1x0

As I get older the inclination to programme my own presets is in decline - Hive has a good easy to use browser - but more importantly a WHOLE bunch of generally groovy presets ...

Oh sorry, you wanted to hear from those who had regrets....

User avatar
exmatproton
KVRAF
2786 posts since 25 Apr, 2011

Post Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:55 am

BONES wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:25 pm
That tells us that you're an irrational brand junkie.....
No, it doesn't

User avatar
zvenx
KVRAF
8367 posts since 16 Feb, 2005 from Kingston, Jamaica

Post Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:02 am

Or could simply mean you have the same sound aesthetics like the developer.
rsp
sound sculptist

Chrisk-K
KVRist
113 posts since 4 Jun, 2020 from USA

Post Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:07 pm

My reason not to buy Hive 2 is probably the funniest. BTW, I like its sounds. I once got stung by a bee and the pain was excruciating. Since then, I have been scared of bees. So, I just cannot use a synth that looks like a bee hive and reminds me of the pain.

vitocorleone123
KVRian
679 posts since 30 Jun, 2014 from Pacific NW

Post Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:32 pm

Urs wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 7:40 am
Plugs4Life wrote:
Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:59 pm
I opened Serum, and it makes sense in a split second. Europa in Reason, I got it right away. Massive X, it took a minute but it’s all easy to figure out.

Hive 2, I have no idea what’s going on, let alone in Zebra.
Here's why. They *look* like they are easy to figure out (and they probably are). That look is achieved by tucking away things in tabs. When you tuck things away, you have a lot of space on the UI and you can act generously with large knobs and stuff. But this kind fo tidy comes with a price.

They *hide* a lot of information from you at any time. Try modulating an LFO with another in this synth or sweep an LFO with an envelope in that one. You have to switch back and forth between two tabs. Tedious shit.

You never need to do that in any of our synths, not even in Zebra. Tabbing in our stuff is "task aware". It's almost difficult to find combinations of modulation or routing where you need to flip back and forth more than once or twice (Zebra has a few, but there are alternatives).

In my opinion, tabbing that isn't "task aware" promotes redundancies and limits the size of the canvas that sound design should have (e.g. you need more modules to achieve the same). Hive in particular is based on the concept of maximizing this canvas by not limiting the access to path ways buried in tediousness. More clutter? Yes, maybe. But still twice the mileage with half the parameter set.
As a professional UX designer and an amateur musician, this is one big reason (another being the quality and sound) of why my most-used software synths are made by U-He. It should come as no surprise that the 2 hardware synths I own are pretty much 1:1 on controls and functionality, with as little menu-diving as possible.

In software, adding tabs is easy. That's one of the first things a Product Manager (sorry, PMs!) wants to do when introducing functionality, especially in mobile. Easy for you, the developer/company doesn't mean "right" and easy for the user. And, yes, clicks and mouse movement (Fitt's law, etc.) really do matter, though it's more the clicks/taps you have to think about that matter more than a general count of them. Omnisphere is an excellent example of making menu-diving usable... but it's still menu-diving (and they UI is optimized for screens of yester-year). As much as I love the sounds I can get from Omnisphere, it's never the first synth I turn to, especially when making a patch from scratch. Massive X sounds great, but, similarly, I don't generally use it - in fact, I've purchased other softsynths to use instead (and plan to sell Komplete).

Anyway, I'm a fan of a great user experience. A LOT of synths, hardware and software, seem to fall short. I'll use those with a less-than-optimal UX if it sounds great and/or fits the need for something specific, but those tend to become my "second tier" rather than favorites.

My favorite software synths to use are still Repro and Hive2 (and Diva, but a couple others I have are roughly tied for 3rd with it). I will admit, however, that I'd prefer the "screen" in Hive 2 to be off to the right rather than in the middle, so that the 2 oscillator sections were together, as that'd make it more usable overall. But less visually striking - and I know there's a design and business trade off there.

audiot
KVRist
474 posts since 8 Jan, 2005 from Germany

Post Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:44 am

vitocorleone123 wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:32 pm
As a professional UX designer and an amateur musician, this is one big reason (another being the quality and sound) of why my most-used software synths are made by U-He. It should come as no surprise that the 2 hardware synths I own are pretty much 1:1 on controls and functionality, with as little menu-diving as possible.

In software, adding tabs is easy. That's one of the first things a Product Manager (sorry, PMs!) wants to do when introducing functionality, especially in mobile. Easy for you, the developer/company doesn't mean "right" and easy for the user. And, yes, clicks and mouse movement (Fitt's law, etc.) really do matter, though it's more the clicks/taps you have to think about that matter more than a general count of them. Omnisphere is an excellent example of making menu-diving usable... but it's still menu-diving (and they UI is optimized for screens of yester-year). As much as I love the sounds I can get from Omnisphere, it's never the first synth I turn to, especially when making a patch from scratch. Massive X sounds great, but, similarly, I don't generally use it - in fact, I've purchased other softsynths to use instead (and plan to sell Komplete).

Anyway, I'm a fan of a great user experience. A LOT of synths, hardware and software, seem to fall short. I'll use those with a less-than-optimal UX if it sounds great and/or fits the need for something specific, but those tend to become my "second tier" rather than favorites.

My favorite software synths to use are still Repro and Hive2 (and Diva, but a couple others I have are roughly tied for 3rd with it). I will admit, however, that I'd prefer the "screen" in Hive 2 to be off to the right rather than in the middle, so that the 2 oscillator sections were together, as that'd make it more usable overall. But less visually striking - and I know there's a design and business trade off there.
Repro is a fantastic sounding synth, but do you really think that this is good UI design? :?: An UI that is modeled after a hardware synth from the early 80's where the components had to be placed in a certain order (dependent on the signalflow)?

I really hope that plugmon developes an alternative skin for repro. He already said that he thinks about it :pray: :pray: :pray: But to be fair ... Repro was designed as a 1:1 emulation and from that perspective the UI is okay.

But I'm really tired of hardware-like UI's. A few days ago I had a look at the new Obsession synth from Synapse and decided that I will not demo it. Some developers should think about offering alternative skins ... one for the retro fraction (and for the sales) and one with an optimized workflow.

User avatar
pdxindy
KVRAF
16949 posts since 3 Feb, 2005 from in the wilds

Post Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:27 am

Funkybot's Evil Twin wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:51 am

The FG's are great, but they can be tricky to conceptualize when you start doing things like using the "Still" of FG1 as the input for the A/D Env of FG2 and then use FG2 Env to modulate something like reverb mix. If you're mostly a preset player or someone who prioritizes composition over synthesis/sound design, I can get why you may not want to bother with trying to figure that type of stuff out. What I don't understand, is why people who would fall into that camp wouldn't just ignore that stuff. It's great for those who want it and get it, and if you don't, just don't touch it.
It also doesn't need to be either or. The Function Generators are easy to use for simple stuff. One does not have to do complex combinations of modulators.

Also, it is easy to connect the FG output to the Scope to see what is happening even with complex modulations.

audiot
KVRist
474 posts since 8 Jan, 2005 from Germany

Post Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:30 am

I finally watched a tutorial about the function generators. They are indeed interesting :o Morphing the waveform of the LFO is a useful purpose. I dont know another synth that can do that, execept Serum which can modulate the anchors of the LFOs/MSEGs since the latest update.

Does anyone have a tip for another concrete purpose? But with "concrete" i mean "concrete" ... i'm not a friend of experimental fiddling orgies :wink:

BTW: The original tutorial from u-he is not so informative, but I found this one really helpful:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjnPXwyA0MI

chk071
KVRAF
24906 posts since 11 Apr, 2010 from Germany

Post Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:49 am

Chrisk-K wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:07 pm
My reason not to buy Hive 2 is probably the funniest. BTW, I like its sounds. I once got stung by a bee and the pain was excruciating. Since then, I have been scared of bees. So, I just cannot use a synth that looks like a bee hive and reminds me of the pain.
Just think of baseball when you use it? ;)
Plugins and a DAW. On a operating system. Which runs on a computer.

BBFG#
KVRAF
6057 posts since 28 Apr, 2013

Post Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:07 am

chk071 wrote:
Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:49 am
Chrisk-K wrote:
Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:07 pm
My reason not to buy Hive 2 is probably the funniest. BTW, I like its sounds. I once got stung by a bee and the pain was excruciating. Since then, I have been scared of bees. So, I just cannot use a synth that looks like a bee hive and reminds me of the pain.
Just think of baseball when you use it? ;)
Or the Borg...

For me, I have the demo installed, and while I love the sound, feel some overlap with my three Zebras and Ace. Ready to jump on a secondhand license from someone dumping it without them knowing it's real worth...
Last edited by BBFG# on Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

srcodling
KVRist
132 posts since 25 Mar, 2004 from Strasbourg, Saskatchewan, Canada

Post Fri Jul 03, 2020 10:09 am

plugmon skins might just do the trick for you with U-he synths... I know they did for me... I see both sides of the issues mentioned above (even the bee stings!) and while some U-he things I've gotten used to, the plugmon skins have really improved my workflow for others... For instance, Eclipse for Hive totally helped me get into Hive way more...

https://plugmon.jp/

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