Reselling plugins, piracy

[bassc]

As far as I can see, EU law says plugin licenses have to be transferable/resell-able.

From a developer perspective, I would imagine it would be near impossible to control piracy when plugins largely still require offline activation and can’t always use call home to check license states. An example situation is the original owner sells plugin, uninstalls it, then next day restores a backup and 2 copies are now in circulation. Repeat.

I guess Ilok is a way around it (cloud for online or usb for offline), but for non-ilok using developers, is the above generally an accepted possibility/hit, or is there something I’m missing that can firm up the process?

[audiothing]

Yes, this is a potential problem. The only thing you could do is to blacklist that license in future updates.
The iLok costs will definitely be higher than the "cost" of piracy due to license transfers.

[VladK]

Yes, this is a potential problem. The only thing you could do is to blacklist that license in future updates.

Blacklisting would hurt legitimate buyer.

[audiothing]

Yes, this is a potential problem. The only thing you could do is to blacklist that license in future updates.

Blacklisting would hurt legitimate buyer.

I wasn't clear. You can blacklist the license of the customer that sold it. The new customer should receive a new license anyway.

[VladK]

Yes, this is a potential problem. The only thing you could do is to blacklist that license in future updates.

Blacklisting would hurt legitimate buyer.

I wasn't clear. You can blacklist the license of the customer that sold it. The new customer should receive a new license anyway.

As far as I remember, at least for some products that I bought second hand, the license # was the same, they only transferred the ownership. The approach you offer would work nicely if there is no third party involved as registrar, like iLok or NI, where product developer would probably had to pay them twice - to revoke the old license, and to register the new one.

[Markus Krause]

The sad truth is that a hand full of people are abusing license-transfers.
Today i noticed someone who continuously bought stuff with discount and resold it on kvr after a short time. He even tried to transfer more stuff than he bought.
After refusing further transfers the well-known kvr-member started blackmailing us:

"If you're also saying I can't transfer Saurus then I'm done with T2. I will ensure this appalling customer policy is reflected at every opportunity to ensure other prospective customers aren't misled into purchasing without transfer option as I have been."

From the developer's perspective you can do 5 things:
- live outside the EU and allow no transfers at all
- blacklist every license that has been transferred
- use a dongle
- use online-activation
- live with the risk that the old user continues to use the software

[Benutzername]

There will always be a few scams, no matter what you do. There is only one solution: Get over it.

If you punish your legit users just because your pride was wounded then you'll lose these sales as well on the long run.

[audiothing]

As far as I remember, at least for some products that I bought second hand, the license # was the same, they only transferred the ownership. The approach you offer would work nicely if there is no third party involved as registrar, like iLok or NI, where product developer would probably had to pay them twice - to revoke the old license, and to register the new one.

We don't use serial numbers but license files (so they contain the customer name, email, purchase date etc...), so it's relatively simple to just blacklist a license and issue a new license for the new customer.
With third party distributors we use redeem codes, once a redeem code is used in the user area, you get the regular license file.

[audiothing]

From the developer's perspective you can do 5 things:
- live outside the EU and allow no transfers at all
- blacklist every license that has been transferred
- use a dongle
- use online-activation
- live with the risk that the old user continues to use the software

I'd say, allow transfers, even outside the EU. Use a license file instead of a serial number. Charge a fee for the name/email change. Blacklist the old license file.

I think that dongles and C/R are just worse (for both the dev and the user) than living with the risk of piracy.

[VladK]

Link all licenses to account.
Provide buyer a license #, and use online activation of application on computer (generate bucket in secure computer storage, or encrypted license file on HDD, etc., linked to specific computer).
Allow configurable number of active computers per license # during purchase. Personal license # count can be set to 1, corporate - to, say, 50, or 100.
Verify/renew activation every time application starts. Allow to run without activation (i.e. trial) and verification (i.e. offline) for, say, 30 or 90 days.
Show all computers currently activated per license on web site (user account area), and when their status was verified last time.
Allow manual deactivation of any computer through application, or on web site account (web browser) - solves problem of broken or stolen computers, simplifies move of licenses between personal computers, and enterprise license management.
Charge fee to transfer licenses between accounts for resellers if you wish - just disable old license (or reduce its computer count), and issue a new license # for buyer.

The license itself may contain provision - resellable or not - based on location of original buyer.

[bassc]

Thanks for the info all.

I guess with license file blacklisting and author in control of transfers, they can administrate against continuous abuse somewhat.

Machine profiling is also semi useful, as it means a license regen can be blocked if required when an offenders computer hardware or OS changes, ending their use.

VladK, i still assume online activation is frowned at, even go-stale periods with infrequent online renewals, so looking mainly towards offline mechanisms. But i guess it may becoming the norm to not have music PC disconnected from web and that this may not be the blocker it once was?

Nothing is uncrackable, but it seems license transfers could be an easy route for some without needing a crack, but above can help.

[Richard_Synapse]

But i guess it may becoming the norm to not have music PC disconnected from web and that this may not be the blocker it once was?

Indeed it is very rare these days. Especially since quite a few software packages require it, OS updates can be important, some DAWs move towards cloud-based solutions, etc.

Richard

[RobinWood]

But i guess it may becoming the norm to not have music PC disconnected from web and that this may not be the blocker it once was?

Indeed it is very rare these days. Especially since quite a few software packages require it, OS updates can be important, some DAWs move towards cloud-based solutions, etc.

Richard

There is the field of pro audio productions where it is mandatory by contract to work on offline systems (like Netflix). Of course there are software packages that require it, but these just won't get used then. I personally know it from the NI product line which went to NativeAccess and how such studios then just didn't do any updates or bought new stuff from them.

But even in the bedroom scene more users know of the consequences of requiring online connection and stayed away from it. The typical example is: what if the company goes out of business? There were nice discussions in here about online vs. offline copy protection with good examples for the positive and negative aspects.

[kevvvvv]

Nice to see a sensible discussion of these issues, instead of the usual "I can d/l anything I want anytime" boasts

[Fire Sledge - Ohm Force]

Indeed it is very rare these days.

But how rare? For example the studio in the place where I live is not connected to the internet, on purpose (but probably not for the same reasons as some of the top end studios). Anyway our budget allows us only the bare minimum on the commercial software side, so I guess we’re not the usual customer for software companies.