VST with multiple layers vs using multiple instruments?

[Teksonik]

Layers are great for creating complex 1 finger presets/sequences and that has pure marketing purpose.

I use layers to create complex sounds that are not "1 finger presets" and that has pure compositional purpose.

The point of multi-layer synths is they allow complex sounds for those who like them while still allowing simple sounds for those who like them.

Take Dune 3 for example. It can be as simple as a single VA Osc in a single Layer but it can also be as complex as 8 Layers with multiple Oscs and synthesis types.

So those who like simple sounds get what they want and those who prefer more complex sounds get what they want.

In other words D3 appeals to a wider range of users and that does marketing value.

[clipnotic]

I made full tracks with Dune3, but only with several single sound instances!

[Teksonik]

Unfortunately the "quickness" of the in-synth-layer approach starts to fail when copy/pasting isn't possible or only partly.

Obviously layering different synths is a whole different concept than layering the same synth with itself.

You can't copy/paste from within different synths.

[Teksonik]

Multiple layers are often only good for presets. For sound deseign... usually I can't get my head around it, anyway.

I often need to layer completely different sounds, such as acoustic piano + FM bell + another sample for different purpose.

But you can create a patch with "acoustic piano + FM bell + another sample" in a complex synth. You don't need different instruments to do the same sound. That's the whole point.

If you can get your head around creating that sound in different synths but not in the same synth then I don't know what to say....

[Teksonik]

I made full tracks with Dune3, but only with several single sound instances!

And I've made full tracks with only a few instances all running complex sounds. No need for several instances.

But here is a perfect example of the power of complex synths. Again they can be as simple as you want or as complex as I want.

We both win and that makes the synth that much more powerful.

[chk071]

Let's take it to the extreme....why should any synth have more than one Osc ? I mean you could just load a boat load of instances to create your sound right ?

That's really something different. Having only one oscillator poses a lot of different problems. E.g. the inability to run several oscillators into the same amp, same filter, same LFO's etc. pp.

That's really different to just having different layers of the same complex synth architecture. I have a lot of synths with only one layer, and I have a few with layers (not more than 2 or 3 though, if I'm correct). The situations where I actually used the layers, I could count on one hand, and, if I did, it was to test layers really. YMMV of course. I would be very interested how many people actually use layers though. Apart from sound designers, who want to provide one note full electronic tracks.

Actually, it's quite a PITA to work with layers, as there's the need to switch pages.

[clipnotic]

And I've made full tracks with only a few instances all running complex sounds. No need for several instances.

But here is a perfect example of the power of complex synths. Again they can be as simple as you want or as complex as I want.

We both win and that makes the synth that much more powerful.

That's a workflow killer, I made for fun 1 Finger presets with Dune3 and Rapid as I learnt them, but I don't understand, why people are working like that in a full production? And beeing complex is possible with single instances, too.

But yes, Dune3 is amazing, meanhwhile my favorite synth!

[BBFG#]

We often discuss differences in tonal characteristics of our plugins here. So for me, this translates equally into whether the layered sound will be homogenized or have a raw complexity.
Both have their place. But I often layer Bazille and Diva in BC Patchwork "presets" to get a sum greater than their individual parts. HALion, is easier to stay within itself as I imagine anything with multiple synth and sample engines would be.

No absolute here otherwise.
Haven't really had that much issue with CPU usage in the last 8-10 years. (Except for when I was using iLok that randomly produced spikes.)

[Teksonik]

Actually, it's quite a PITA to work with layers, as there's the need to switch pages.

A opposed to switching synths ? That's more of a PITA.

Apart from sound designers, who want to provide one note full electronic tracks.

I made for fun 1 Finger presets with Dune3 and Rapid as I learnt them,

See here's the problem, you guys are locked in on this "1 Finger" concept. Not all complex sounds are "1 Finger" some are just complex evolving sounds suitable for ambient, movie soundtracks etc.

Here's an example of where a Layer doesn't have anything to do with "1 Finger". Say I use a Layer in Dune 3 just to add a little Pluck at the beginning of a patch to reinforce the attack. It only plays during the first part of the sound and not during the body of the sound.

You're going to load an entirely separate instance of Dune 3 just for that part of the sound ? Ok whatever but to me that's just a waste.

That's just one of many examples where Layers can make complex sounds that don't result in "1 Finger" patches. It's really just down to your imagination.

We all make different music and we all work differently and your method is in no way superior to mine and mine is in no way superior to yours but complex Layer synths allow us both to work the way we want whereas simple synths only allow you to work the way you want.

Whether you appreciate the power of Layer synths isn't the point. Some of us do.

So everybody work they way you want. Right now I'm going to go and enjoy making some complex patches that will not be "1 Finger" and which will no doubt end up in a composition.

I bid a good day to all......

[chk071]

Whether you appreciate the power of Layer synths isn't the point. Some of us do.

Fair enough. The question is, how many actually do? There's not a lot of synths with layers.

[AnX]

ppl need to be told how to use synths

if you're not doing it the same as someone else, you're doing it wrong

fact

[clipnotic]

Of course everybody has a own workflow, but it's not necessary to have "layer synths" to add a pluck or a accoustic instrument to a pad and so on. You can also do this easily in the DAW with multiple synths and with that method, you have much more freedom, especially in the mixer. In my DAW I build synth chains very easy and every sound has it's own mixer channel. But I'm a old man and as I started buying synths, there were not many layer synths available ...

[MRT]

I have no opinion pro or con for working with multi channel/layered vst's. But there was a time when a person working with hardware might only be able to afford one synth. The ability to have different voices on different channels was really a god send.
While not really relevant today, I wonder if the concept might not be a hold over from the multi-timbrel workstation days?

[chk071]

After getting a bit into the multi instrument in Studio One, I even have less use for layers in a synth. There's everything possible in the multi instruments that I ever ask for, for a layer workflow, or for quickly setting up a synth with outboard fx, which I can quickly recall and add to a track. I really prefer that to having different implementations in the synths themselves. It's a consistent system with every instrument that way.

So, yeah, die, you layer synths.

[Teksonik]

That's nice. I use Layer Synths every day and in every composition.

But why should anyone care what you or I like or use ? Dredging up a months old thread just to restart yet another argument is pointless.

Geeks talk about synths....musicians use them. I'm going to go make music now.....