Don´t want to suppor thes Window sh... anymore. Change to Linux?

[chk071]

Maybe Microsoft need a force like Phil Spencer/Spender and what he did for Xbox to be in the market again - but someone for Windows itself.

Some visionary that also seem to listen to user base.

Microsoft's biggest problem with Windows 10 is that they listen to their user base... users aren't experts in terms of designing a operating system. You notice at every end that Microsoft always tries to please the majority of users with Windows 10, that's why we have gazillions of new features in half yearly big updates, or Windows Update which won't let you control when or whether at all to install updates (it's for those dumb people who would never update in their life, so Microsoft think that it's necessary to force updates on these people, because it's the same people who would complain about Windows being so insecure when they browse their warez sites, and nothing warns them of their malicious downloads).

It's always a big mistake to try to please everyone. You have to have a strict perception of how your software should be like, and the ability to reach a certain market decides whether you are successful with that or not, not that billions of users are so-so happy with your software. That's the big issue with Windows. Mac OS never had that issue, because they always catered to a certain market (not the majority of people). They also have this issue now that that market has grown bigger, and people who would have never bought a Mac back in the days try to take influence on what Mac OS should be like nowadays, but, that was never intended in the first place.

Anyway, if the OP wants to use Linux for audio, by all means, he should make his own experience... I'd even encourage him to make the experience... I think it's also good style to point out the downsides - using wrappers for plugin compatibility, which always takes more CPU, having to fiddle with pre-alpha 0.1 version software, which has never seen a newer version, having to fiddle with buggy unstable software, or having to fiddle with complicated stuff like JACK. Or using the console and console commands a lot. All experiences a normal computer user should make, and decide for himself then whether he is a computer user, or someone who wants to administrate a computer. There is no either/or with Linux, unfortunately. Unless you want to use your OS for really simple stuff like browsing websites, or checking emails.

[Guenon]

@Guenon: I didn't read all of your post, but, rest assured that I have enough Linux experience to form a opinion about it.

Yes, also with Linux audio.

Haha, I'm sure you feel that way !

As I said, one is more likely to get replies like the one you wrote above. Anyway, in my post I described why I haven't used Linux as my main audio workstation, and why I didn't start using it as such this year, either.

I also detailed the experience in other ways, of course. Not at any point did I have to "fiddle with pre-alpha 0.1 version software, which has never seen a newer version" -- the portable system I built is rock solid, there was no "fiddling with buggy unstable software" whatsoever, either, and so on. Instead, I was really impressed by the functionality and stability. But again, comments like those just come with the territory, and one can't expect otherwise, really.

For someone with the technical skills and motivation to build a working environment in this fashion, I'd wholeheartedly recommend seeing what's on offer. That's where we seem to agree. For someone who doesn't enjoy dealing with computer tech on such a level, it's not a nice activity regardless of the field you work in -- customizing a working environment like that, I mean. You need a certain mindset and a certain skillset, but then again, there are skill requirements when engaging in any advanced activity. If one has the skills, one also get the benefits; as I said, once you have built it, it's yours to use month in month out, just focusing on your audio/music activities instead of "administrating" the system, and it just keeps working, dependably, exactly as you set it up. That's something I like a lot.

And then again, if one doesn't have the particular skills/enjoyment to do all that, there are alternatives that likely suit one better.

[mgw38]

FWIW.. If you have been bitten by the FOSS Richard Stallman bug, you may want to get into video animation. Those guys use tons of FOSS.

Not really. There is a highly active Blender bubble but that is really a small minority of people.

[ahanysz]

I've been using Linux as my main OS since 2005. My PC is dual boot, so I have the option of using Windows for those few applications that really won't play nicely with Linux (mostly games, some multimedia). But I'm using it less and less over time, to the point where my next computer upgrade might be 100% Linux.

Until recently, I would have said: stay away from Linux for serious audio work, unless you love compiling your own software and fixing up config files in a text editor. But things have changed a lot over the last few years.

Reaper, Bitwig and Renoise have got serious about making good native Linux DAWs. Audacity has been there all along, as well as command line tools such as sox and ffmpeg giving you batch processing possibilities way ahead of anything you can easily do in a DAW.

Pianoteq is my main virtual instrument, and has been Linux-friendly all along. U-he, Tracktion, DiscoDSP, VCV Rack and others are now supporting Linux, as well as excellent freeware such as Surge and Odin2. (Weird fact: if you ever want to try DIN Is Noise, the Linux version is free while the Windows version is rather expensive!) Wine has reached the point where most Windows VSTs can be bridged to Linux with no hassles.

To be fair, if you're relying a lot on sample libraries rather than synths, you might find there's still a gap there. For synths, there's enough people using Linux that you can easily find help when you need it. I'm not aware of many people doing serious work with commercial sample libraries on Linux. And I don't think there's yet any professional-grade notation software with a native Linux version. (Cue flame-war about Liilypond, Rosegarden and MuseScore...) But for recording, production and synths, you'll have no shortage of options or support on a Linux system.

Jack audio drivers (Linux's answer to ASIO) are now low-hassle. The stock Linux kernel has low enough latency for most purposes (no need to mess about with real-time kernels unless you're very fussy). Any hardware with "class compliant" in the description will plug into a USB port and work out of the box, no driver installation needed. I'm now running into devices that are easier to get working in Linux than in Windows.

Oh, and the process of installing Linux in the first place is easier than ever, with new graphical installers walking you through the process.

All this has changed in the last five years (as far as I'm aware). What's not changed is that Linux is rock-solid in terms of stability. You can do your regular updates without reboot. I hibernate my computer then start it up again in seconds with my workspace exactly as I left it, and I can keep doing this for months at a time without a reboot.

Disclaimer: when it comes to computer audio, I'm a hobbyist not a professional, so please get further advice if you'll be relying on Linux for earning a living with audio. It was the software development and scientific computing tools that got me on the Linux path in the first place. Finding out that I can also make music with Linux is a bonus.

[lunardigs]

Linux is incredible. I think there's many reasons to invest time and energy to learn it.

When I first started playing with Linux, I was a Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer (MCSE). I was in no way a Linux fanboy; to the contrary. One of the first things I noticed was that Linux had an equivalent of nearly everything I'd come to know on the Windows desktop/server. In fact, many times, a Windows version of a given protocol--this goes for Mac too--is a repackaged open standard. The amazing part about it is how well these companies can obfuscate that. Mind you, I took official MS courses to become certified.
When I realized this, things really clicked for me. Suddenly I was leveraging Linux for things I couldn't accomplish with Windows, in a Windows Enterprise--without having to rake my clients for "seat licenses" or whatever other scheme.
Furthermore, I was beginning to learn the real conventions of the Internet; not some Microsoft product purveyed as such.

Anyway, I think the big payoff with Linux is in the long term. Once you learn it, it'll return in dividends. That's what I've found.
For one, it's not likely to change radically. When it does change, the reasoning is usually well principled. Moreover, Linux doesn't have the kind of commercial motivations that MS and Apple have. This includes lock-in & lock-out concepts which we so fondly know.
Also, the profit motive is absent behind many of the security issues we now know, like mass surveillance and data collection. It should be obvious by now that MS and Apple are complicit in this; not least, because it's their ecosystem.

All that said, how does Linux work for Pro Audio? Very well. I've been using it exclusively for music--without WINE--since 2014. In fact, KVR has helped me in this journey, big time, because I can search for Linux stuff! There's lots of Linux stuff!
Also, say you decide to do the same as me, you can sell all your Windows plugs on KVR! In fact, most of us probably have a small fortune which could be made by selling via KVR.

There's even more value in doing this as you will discover very quickly what tools you can and can't dispense with. Turns out for me, I have everything I need and it's hardly the mess it once was. Plus, I've learned my core tools and techniques better as a result.
It's been a very good experience so far and not quite for the reasons I may have envisioned. Nonetheless, I have no desire to return to Windows or otherwise.

[Kott]

Linux provides ability to do music in UNIX-way using NSM, JACK, Control Voltage Plugins
Main issue is the hardware support. Yes, many audio interfaces are supported but not all.

[lunardigs]

Linux provides ability to do music in UNIX-way using NSM, JACK, Control Voltage Plugins
Main issue is the hardware support. Yes, many audio interfaces are supported but not all.

True ... This part can make things tricky.
Thankfully though, RME interfaces work very well for the most part. I use a Fireface UFX via USB2 and it's great. RME's PCI/e cards work very well too.
Virtually anything Class Compliant should work.

Which brings up another positive point; proprietary drivers aren't necessary. The Linux kernel is the driver. This isn't to say you can't install external drivers (kernel modules), it just isn't necessary in my experience. That is with one exception, perhaps; nvidia drivers. Yet, even here, there's open source nvidia drivers ...

Here's a good one though: I've always heard Focusrite drivers are flaky. Yet, when paired with Linux, you're able to avoid the official driver. All of a sudden your Focusrite interface is solid.

Then of course there's the issue of having older hardware work upon newer Windows versions, which will not accept the installation of an older driver. This is not an issue you'll encounter with Linux.
There's in depth details I'm skipping over, but suffice it to say, Linux has a different concept of driving hardware than Windows.

[BONES]

My Focusrite drivers have always been abspolutely rock-solid.

I am sure, Windows is the bigges spy software on earth.

It can't be, there are laws protecting idiots from that kind of thing. Any company that collects data that can be identified as belonging to an individual requires your explicit consent. More than that, they have to ask you every time they want to share it with anyone else. Not just once but on each individual occasion. Yes, Microsoft collects anonymous data on how we all use Windows but they use that data to make Windows better.
Why do you think Microsoft would even be interested in your data? What do you think they are going to do with it?

I don´t know if Linux is any better, so I want to have some experience from Linux users that use it to make music.

It doesn't matter which OS you use, your web browser is where most data collection occurs. Even if you don't use Chrome or Google search, Google probably knows more about you than anyone else - more than your mother, more than your partner, more than your best friend. And they use that data against you, to sell advertising.

The bottom line is that the only way to avoid your data being collected every minute of every day that you are using your computer is to never connect to the internet. If you are connected to the internet, your data is being collected and there is nothing you can do about it. But so what? What big secrets have you got that you don't want anyone else to know about? Honestly, you could plaster the contents of my phone and laptop up on billboards all over the city and I couldn't care less. Privacy is an illusion, a marketing tool Apple use to get you to buy their products. The reality is that you have no privacy on line and that is never going to change.

The above is a good example of the kind of biased replies these sorts of topics will generate in a place like this, if one doesn't post in a specific thread already dealing with the subject ...

Sorry, pal, but it's the other way around - you're the guy with the biased reply. Let me show you why. Actually, I don't need to show you, you can check this out for yourself, right here at KVR. Go to the advanced search page - https://www.kvraudio.com/q.php. Enter the query "VST host" and press "Search". You get 4064 results. Now go to the OS requirements filter, select Linux and search again. You get 135 results. Change the OS to Windows and you get 3594 results. Change it again to macOS and you get 2,418 results.

That, right there, is the end of the discussion. OK, I know that quality is more important than quantity but we all know that none of the pro-quality DAWs run on Linux and that very few of what would be considered the highest quality VST plugins are ported to Linux, either. Plus, of course, with more choice comes a greater probability that you will find exactly what you need, rather than having to make do with a steaming pile of compromises.

On top of that very few 3rd party I/O devices have Linux drivers. It's choosing your OS over making the best choices for your music. It's trying to do good work with both hands tied behind your back and a hood over your head.

Anyone who chooses their OS first has got it arse-backwards. The first thing you do is identify those applications you need to do whatever it is you want to do. Once you have chosen those, you then look for the OS that best supports those applications. If you do that, you will pretty much never pick Linux, which is why nobody bothers with it. Believe me, I gave it a red hot go over a couple of years before I realised my folly. Since the mid-90s Linux prime-time has been just around the corner but it never happened and probably never will.

native must haves (Reaper and its custom working environment, imported straight away from my main workstations without any issues, Renoise + Redux, u-he plugins, Surge, TAL plugins, VCV Rack etc...), ...

What if I don't want to use any of those things? I have three u-he instruments but I almost never use them, but I have none of those other things. Where's the Linux support for any of the things listed in my signature?

I hope that inspires someone to try something like this , it sure is fun

No, what's fun is writing a new song, nailing the arrangement and production and then getting up on stage to perform it live. Spending even one minute looking at your OS is mindless tedium.

Somebody that is aware of the various ways people use the PC and where constant updates is a really bad idea.

But constant updates are a really good idea, otherwise you're left vulnerable to all kinds of hacks. And the vast majority of Windows users will agree because they don't give a shit and never have any problems. Have you ever had a problem caused by an update? I certainly never have and I am always on beta builds, so I get a lot more updates than you do. You only get two a year, I get about 8.

If so many people think about how to avoid another Windows PC is a sign to take seriously.

If 1,000,000 people have that attitude, it represents just 0.1% of all users. But it's probably not a million, it's likely just a noisy few thousand, which is completely insignificant in the greater scheme of things.

Windows Update which won't let you control when or whether at all to install updates.

So what? Why does it matter? By the time they are released to the public, they have been thoroughly tested on more than one million machines by Insiders, users just like you and me (in fact exactly like me, I've been doing it since Win8). The chances of anything slipping through is miniscule and the chance of anything that does slip through affecting you is insignificant. As I said above, is a million people have a problem, that's just 0.1% of users. I've always allowed updates to install as they are released and it's never caused me more than the tiniest inconvenience (which I reported and was fixed before it was released to everyone).

Mac OS never had that issue, because they always catered to a certain market (not the majority of people).

You could not be further from the truth. macOS never had a problem because Apple don't give a shit about their users, they do whatever the f**k they feel like doing, knowing that their users will suck it up and make their excuses for them. It's the only OS I have used that consistently gets worse with every new version.

I'm now running into devices that are easier to get working in Linux than in Windows.

Name one.

You can do your regular updates without reboot. I hibernate my computer then start it up again in seconds with my workspace exactly as I left it, and I can keep doing this for months at a time

I can do that with Windows by shutting it down, because it boots in around 10 seconds. Honestly, the thought of leaving my computer on 24/7 has entered my mind in about 15 years. But if you don't give a shit about the environment or the future of the planet, by all means leave all your stuff running 24/7.

[ahanysz]

(wall of text)

No comment.

I'm now running into devices that are easier to get working in Linux than in Windows.

Name one.

• iCON iControls: ran into an unsolvable driver bug, never got it working on three different Windows machines. Plug and play with Linux.
• Logitech webcam: Windows wanted me to install a driver. For Linux, I just plugged it in and it works.
• HP multifunction printer: ditto.

That's just the three most recent examples. I understand why Linux has a bad reputation, because back in the early 2000s it was much more difficult to get some devices working. I've noticed a change during the last few years.

You can do your regular updates without reboot. I hibernate my computer then start it up again in seconds with my workspace exactly as I left it, and I can keep doing this for months at a time

I can do that with Windows by shutting it down, because it boots in around 10 seconds. Honestly, the thought of leaving my computer on 24/7 has entered my mind in about 15 years. But if you don't give a shit about the environment or the future of the planet, by all means leave all your stuff running 24/7.

Hibernate means the power is off. (And electricity in my house comes from wind farms, 100% green, thanks for asking.) Windows boots in 10 seconds except for the times when it says "configuring updates", spins the cursor for a few minutes, auto-reboots and then puts up a nag screen trying to sign me up to Microsoft services that I'll never use. I can set up Linux so that it literally never does anything like that to me. I haven't found out how to get the same experience from Windows.

But that's OK. I don't mind if you prefer to use a different system from me. I'm not going to spend time criticising other people's choices. Just sharing how it's worked for me. I hope we can keep the conversation civil.

[glokraw]

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[fese]

Whenever I get annoyed by Windows, I think about switching to Linux, but I would want all my software and hardware to work without hassle. That means Cubase and all my plugins, including ilok. I wouldn’t want to limit myself just for ideological reasons.
And then I’d be annoyed by Linux, because the grass usually just seems to be greener at the other side ... Linux can be annoying as f***. And I say that as a professional Linux sysadmin for twenty years...there is a LOT wrong with Linux, especially everything with consistency and usability.
So as long as Windows just works, I’ll stay there, and regarding the privacy issues, there’s things you can do, e.g. use specific privacy tools and get a pihole. As others wrote, I don’t think MS is the biggest privacy problem anyway, as long as you use something from Google...

Anyhoo, I hear an Atari ST is quite good for music production.

[BONES]

[*]iCON iControls: ran into an unsolvable driver bug, never got it working on three different Windows machines. Plug and play with Linux.

It's class-compliant, it doesn't need a driver. If it doesn't work, take it back and get a Korg Nano-device.

That's just the three most recent examples. I understand why Linux has a bad reputation, because back in the early 2000s it was much more difficult to get some devices working. I've noticed a change during the last few years.

I'm not worried about Linux, I've just never in my life plugged something into my Windows machine and not had it work properly from the get-go (after installing appropriate drivers, where necessary), unless it's been something I have done wrong, of course. Normally I'd assume you were a clueless idiot but that doesn't seem to be the case here. Maybe you're just extremely unlucky. Seriously, it's been so long since I've had those kinds of problems with Windows that I wouldn't even remember how to go about solving them.

You can do your regular updates without reboot. I hibernate my computer then start it up again in seconds with my workspace exactly as I left it, and I can keep doing this for months at a time

(And electricity in my house comes from wind farms, 100% green, thanks for asking.)

Is that what they tell you? Can you explain how they keep it separate from all the other electricity and make sure it all gets to you? How do you cope on days when there is no wind?

Windows boots in 10 seconds except for the times when it says "configuring updates", spins the cursor for a few minutes, auto-reboots and then puts up a nag screen trying to sign me up to Microsoft services that I'll never use.

The first part happens when I'm finished for the day, about one night in 50. So overall that would be one shut down in fewer than 100. Next morning it starts as normal. I have no idea about the second part, that's never happened on my machine.

I can set up Linux so that it literally never does anything like that to me. I haven't found out how to get the same experience from Windows.

Just set your active hours and use your computer as normal. It's not rocket science.

[GRUMP]

Linux is a Trap. The Usergroup is a Selection of People who have no Trust and potentially something to hide.

[Kott]

Name one.

e-mu 1616

[Kott]

Linux is a Trap. The Usergroup is a Selection of People who have no Trust and potentially something to hide.

give me please your credit card number, exp. date and cv code