Polyphonic aftertouch: what is the problem?

[BBFG#]

My main complaint is in multiple triggers of the same note in "one handed" 4/5/6 strokes.

I see now. On my Pashkuli keyboard you can play tremolos by just swivelling your finger and triggering the dome-shape of the respective key. It is very similar to a tremolo technique using a guitar pick on a string.
It is so easy actually, I consider it ridiculous at this point.

Nipping the bait...
How does it differentiate between tremolo and vibrato?

Also, if a keyboard can split and see separate channels in those splits, many players find that "poly" enough.
And when doing guitars, I find it best to know which guitar hand is doing the bend. That is, a slight bend or slide up on velocity/after touch and a whammy bar down (and sometimes up). For that I prefer the joystick. And joystick vibratos are quite convincing.

So how many other things included in MIDI 1 is still not included on our controllers?

[zerocrossing]

You’re making the mistake of thinking of polyphonic aftertouch as a thing that’s supposed to emulate how a single instrument behaves.

Fair enough

Mostly I'm objecting to the general argument that expressive electronic music is impossible without (insert feature here).

Oh yeah, that’s ridiculous. We’ve all seen great performances done on a Minimoog. It’s just a personal preference. I started out playing guitar, so an instrument without velocity and aftertouch feels like something’s missing for me. I remember I once accidentally bought a MIDI controller without aftertouch and I spent an hour trying to figure out what was wrong. I figured it was just a standard feature.

[Pashkuli]

Most, if not all, aftertouch implementations in today's keyboards is just a trigger, hardly ever possible to be controlled in its assigned parameter (especially being a pitch bend). So, it is usually mostly timbral related colourisation of the initial sound.

Aftertouch is really a good feature, although still not implemented correctly.

[lfm]

Most, if not all, aftertouch implementations in today's keyboards is just a trigger, hardly ever possible to be controlled in its assigned parameter (especially being a pitch bend). So, it is usually mostly timbral related colourisation of the initial sound.

Aftertouch is really a good feature, although still not implemented correctly.

How true - most are just no feel to AT at all.
Only I owned that had long enough stroke on AT was Arturia AnalogLab.

So will be interesting, also for the discussion here, how PolyBrute will be equipped regarding this will be telling how Arturias response was on that.
- if like some of us, think AT is pseudodiscussion
- or that this it is really essential for expressing music properly

Manual call it pressure sensitive, probably meaning it's like pressing the finger against a table surface. But there are curves to apply. So seems what they did before is not repeated in allowing a long stroke for AT - that idea was dropped.

So playing fortissimo, probably generate some AT too.

I remember AnalogLab had breath controller input too, but this was no longer on market, not Yamaha nor other, at the time - could not find one.

And yes, PolyBrute is channel AT - also tells a story.
Personally I think a second expression pedal is more useful, having hands free not occupied pressing a key. Two feet on expression, very useful. So PolyBrute has two expression pedal inputs and sustain too. Probably a lot of thought into that.

[JCJR]

Re cost of poly AT implementation, the variable-inductance sensing method in Ensoniq Poly AT keyboards would be more expensive to implement than conventional "rubber nipple" multi-contact conductive plastic contacts, but not incredibly more expensive. It was just a small inductor coil under each key, the coil just a pattern etched into the circuit board. And a small steel or iron plate under each key. When the key is depressed, the metal plate changes distance to the coil, modulating the coil inductance . The inductance of all the coils is constantly scanned by multiplex circuitry, rather than conventional keyboard contstant scanning of switch closures. Even at the heaviest poly pressure depression, the metal plate never actually touches the coil.

It has advantages-- No switch closures, no dead, worn-out, or dirty switch contacts to clean or replace. The main kind of wear is the wearing out of the key bearings, which all moving-key systems have in common. Really, no moving parts except the key bearing itself.

Maybe some of the later version Ensoniq inductive keyboards had a good feel. I didn't play all of the later-generation versions and maybe some had improved feel. The earlier-generation versions worked great, lasted a long time, and were not completely unpleasant to play. But they were not the best-feeling keyboards, mechanically speaking, and were somewhat clacky. NOTE: Not all the Ensoniq keyboards used the inductive keyboards, many used conventional mechanical switch type keyboards.

But probably somebody could probably make a really good-feeling keyboard and hang an inductive keyscanning system on it. I dont think there is a law of nature that an inductive sensing tech would have to feel bad, any more than mechanical switch keyboards have to feel bad. Some feel good and some feel bad regardless of the key sensing tech.

I think some recent Poly AT keyboards use high-resolution optical sensors, little light shutters under each key, interupting an LED on one side and a photocell on the other side. That would also be a "no moving parts" system and maybe somehow better than inductive sensing. But it sounds "more expensive" to me, to implement so many optical sensors, versus simple cheap dumb coils printed on a circuit board and little iron plates glued to the bottom of the keys. And an optical system would be more subject to dust and probably need blowing out once in awhile. An inductive system should be rather immune to dust unless it is so thick that it just completely clogs the innards.

I think some of the Poly AT keyboards use pressure-sensitive foam plastic or whatever. That seems to me the most likely to wear out the soonest. Surely there are some miracle foams somewhere that never lose elasticity or change electrical characteristics, but it is so damn common to find old foam either hardened to crumbles, or over the years gradually turning into a mess of sticky goo. Some kind of "no moving parts" system would seem lots better longevity of investment.

[Pashkuli]

Or maybe as I was thinking of implementing a deeper range of motion with a somehow tough spring around a coil with 5~6mm traction. The spring should support the key from the "click point" which will give mark/signal (with a small bump) to the player that a AT is about to get triggered.

A polyphony of ×4 to ×8 should be more than enough as no single player is capable of controlling more than 4 keys/notes in AT precisely as intended. Ok, 10 for 10 fingers should be the optimal maximum.

With two players on the same keyboard... I do not know... if 8 is as expensive as 20, then ×20 polyphonic AT it would be.
Anything above that is just quite an overkill.

[BBFG#]

Ensoniq always felt flimsy to me. And although one store I worked wasn't a dealer, we were an authorized service for them. And the number we took in weekly for repair was a continual onslaught for our technicians. Number one problem - keyboard aftertouch.

Without a doubt, the best poly-AT I ever played so far was the Prophet T8.
I was even lucky enough to do an extended demo to the president of Yamaha on it. (He was there to setup their new financing company.)
When I was done, he spoke a single line to his interpreter, who translated it simply to "we have to buy them" (SC)
And eventually they did. But I don't think anyone has used that method for Poly-AT since the T8.

And I'll ask Pashkuli again.
How does your keyboard differentiate between tremolo and vibrato?

[Pashkuli]

And I'll ask Pashkuli again.
How does your keyboard differentiate between tremolo and vibrato?

I am afraid I do not quite understand your question as I do not see anything remotely closer between tremolo and vibrato.

[BBFG#]

And I'll ask Pashkuli again.
How does your keyboard differentiate between tremolo and vibrato?

I am afraid I do not quite understand your question as I do not see anything remotely closer between tremolo and vibrato.

Tremolo works on varying the volume.
Vibrato works on varying the pitch.
As most keyboards that can do it can have one or the other but not both at the same time; and most use the keyboard setup for vibrato with tremolo routed to a switch or slider...
Well, your previous statement seemed to prefer tremolo on touch response?
Or AIRI, that each could be done by a different motion. e.g. vibrato by moving side to side and tremolo moving in circles? That seems too close for the keyboard to know the difference to me. So I asked.

Now I joined the kickstarter of the ring where movement relates somehow to an interpreter box. But since I still haven't taken delivery on it (and at v this point have my doubts that I ever will.) - It's an interesting subject for details for me.

[Pashkuli]

Oh, to me tremolo is fast repeat of a note, not fast variation on volume (which would be more like "phaser" effect).
In this respect yes, tremolo is on a expression pedal or slider, knob.
Vibrato is direct touch expression. Tremolo is not. Could not see much application for a poly-tremolo in that respect.

[BBFG#]

Oh, to me tremolo is fast repeat of a note, not fast variation on volume (which would be more like "phaser" effect).
In this respect yes, tremolo is on a expression pedal or slider, knob.
Vibrato is direct touch expression. Tremolo is not. Could not see much application for a poly-tremolo in that respect.

Neither do I, which is why I asked for clarification on your first statement of keyboard control of tremolo. Tremolo can be varied from slow to fast and is not simply a repetition of notes. Although it can sound like that at hat speeds. And phaser is a signal time delay element within a limited range.

Thanks for clarifying your previous comment.

[Pashkuli]

I look at tremolo from a guitar perspective. Tremolo is fast repetition (usually staccato) of a single note.
On piano you would need at least two fingers, some pianist perform it with three (ring, middle, index).
On my keyboard you need only one finger and you could still be holding the rest of the chord notes with the same hand.

[BBFG#]

I look at tremolo from a guitar perspective. Tremolo is fast repetition (usually staccato) of a single note.
On piano you would need at least two fingers, some pianist perform it with three (ring, middle, index).
On my keyboard you need only one finger and you could still be holding the rest of the chord notes with the same hand.

From a "guitar perspective", tremolo is usually built into the amp or achieved by pedal. And is about volume (amplitude.) Same with many organs. What your calling tremolo is simply repeat. (I do however understand the commonly used misnomer of the term and accept it in plectrum terms as well.) But that does take us full circle to my number one stated complaint about the ROLI. Because to do it on that controller, you have to use both hands as a drummer to do what I do with a single hand using the relative number of fingers on a standard keyboard.

[Pashkuli]

tremolo technique
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4SADb22Ybw

tremelo effect
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOCNB1izw8A

[pdxindy]

You’re making the mistake of thinking of polyphonic aftertouch as a thing that’s supposed to emulate how a single instrument behaves.

Fair enough

Mostly I'm objecting to the general argument that expressive electronic music is impossible without (insert feature here).

My MPE controllers offer types of expressive playing impossible on a standard midi controller. Doesn’t mean regular controllers aren’t expressive