KVR Audio

wagtunes · Post by **wagtunes** » Wed Sep 30, 2020 1:14 pm

I will make this as short and to the point as I can.

Please listen to these examples

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxzZ_4t ... 9j&index=6

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vl3hRrV ... G&index=20

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYxNbEos2O4

What I Can Make Out - The lead instruments, for the most part. Flutes are obvious. Trumpets are obvious.

What I Have Serious Trouble With - The underlying instruments. Especially when the singers are singing. Even when it's just the instrumental section, it's difficult to know every instrument playing because everything just blends together so well. Also, very difficult to make out what articulation an instrument is playing at any given time. If you're actually playing the instrument, this is no problem as you know your instrument and how to get a given sound out of it. However, if you're using an orchestral library with keyswitching, not so easy, especially if there are numerous articulatrions. WARP IV libraries have so many that they need to use a 2 keyswitch at a time system.

In short, I need to figure out these scores before I can create my own. But downloading Broadway scores is a fortune. One song for one instrument can cost anywhere from $30 to $100 and that's just for ONE instrument.

I realize that I am probably in over my head trying to do something like this as I am not a trained orchestrator. But if I could hear what's going on, just like with a rock song I can hear that there are drums, a bass, guitars, etc. (I just finished a cover tunes project that got a lot of praise) and come up with an arrangement fairly easily. With Broadway, I don't even know where to begin.

So...any suggestions that anybody can give me? My gut tells me no. My gut tells me that I have to go to school and learn orchestration. At my age, that will take me years. I'd like to get this project completed within the next 6 months.

Please help. Any suggestions are welcome. And yes, if I'm biting off more than I can chew and there is no way I'll be able to pull this off, tell me that too. I may decide to scrap the project if enough people sincerely tell me that this is going to be incredibly difficult with no formal training along with my inability to make out the underlying instrumentation.

Thank you in advance.

Michael L · Post by **Michael L** » Wed Sep 30, 2020 1:40 pm

Pick a show with a simple onstage band like Hamilton— that’s a trend now; like Movin Out, string a bunch of your songs together around a story line; also watch shows online to see different staging. Stay in your comfort zone where you like to be. Sorry for brevity, on phone.

wagtunes · Post by **wagtunes** » Wed Sep 30, 2020 1:46 pm

Michael L wrote: ↑Wed Sep 30, 2020 1:40 pm Pick a show with a simple onstage band like Movin Out; string a bunch of your songs together around a story line; also watch shows online. Stay in your comfort zone where you like to be.

I've actually just finished listening to 36 Broadway shows.

Here is the list.

42nd Street
Alice In Wonderland
Annie
Annie Get Your Gun
Anything Goes
Babes In Arms
Brigadoon
Bye Bye Birdie
Camelot
Carousel
Cinderella
Damn Yankees
Gypsy
How To Succeed In Business
King And I
Little Shop Of Horrors
Mary Poppins
Les Miserables
Music Man
My Fair Lady
Oklahoma
Oliver
Phantom Of The Opera
Pippen
Producers
Rothschilds
Saving Mr Banks
Shendandoah
Show Boat
Singin' In The Rain
Sound Of Music
South Pacific
Spamalot
Sweeney Todd
West Side Story
Wicked

I'd like to do something more traditional. Staying in my "comfort zone" is no challenge. I might as well not do this at all. So yeah, I'm looking to do another South Pacific or whatever. If I'm dreaming and insane for thinking I can pull that off, I'll take that. And if that's the general consensus from the forum, so be it. But I'd like to hear from a few people before I make that decision.

Michael L · Post by **Michael L** » Wed Sep 30, 2020 1:50 pm

Why not?
Nothing to lose.
You won’t fail at it.
But who will sing?

wagtunes · Post by **wagtunes** » Wed Sep 30, 2020 1:54 pm

Michael L wrote: ↑Wed Sep 30, 2020 1:50 pm Why not?
Nothing to lose.
You won’t fail at it.
But who will sing?

The singing will be a combination of myself and synthetic vocals. The script for the play is already written. All that's left to do is write the music. Orchestration is what I'm stuck on. When you have a hundred instruments playing at one time, it's difficult to know who is playing what or even what instruments are playing at all.

Michael L · Post by **Michael L** » Wed Sep 30, 2020 2:01 pm

Christian Henson has a nice video on building orchestral compositions from scratch; also Guy Michelmore. Go for it before you die of Covid.

wagtunes · Post by **wagtunes** » Wed Sep 30, 2020 2:06 pm

Michael L wrote: ↑Wed Sep 30, 2020 2:01 pm Christian Henson has a nice video on building orchestral compositions from scratch; also Guy Michelmore. Go for it before you die of Covid.

I've actually been watching Guy's stuff. Really fun guy to watch. But his instructions are very basic and more geared for classical orchestra. I'm sure there are courses out there I can probably take, that I'd have to pay for. Heck, for that matter, I can enroll at Berklee Online and pay hundreds of dollars to learn this stuff. Unfortunately, funds are a bit tight right now and I can't afford the luxury of going to school.

Michael L · Post by **Michael L** » Wed Sep 30, 2020 2:18 pm

What about a genre that fits synth vocals like a chiptune musical? “I’m in love with a wonderful droid” (from South Pacman). Could be cool. Think of that Westworld comp winner.....

wagtunes · Post by **wagtunes** » Wed Sep 30, 2020 2:49 pm

Michael L wrote: ↑Wed Sep 30, 2020 2:18 pm What about a genre that fits synth vocals like a chiptune musical? “I’m in love with a wonderful droid.” Could be cool. Think of that Westworld comp winner.....

Thanks but I prefer to try to do something traditional. Old school, circa 1950s to 1970s.

Michael L · Post by **Michael L** » Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:05 pm

Ok then this should help:
https://www.oxfordhandbooks.com/view/10 ... 0195385946

wagtunes · Post by **wagtunes** » Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:10 pm

Michael L wrote: ↑Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:05 pm Ok then this should help:
https://www.oxfordhandbooks.com/view/10 ... 0195385946

It's $175. Thanks, but I'll pass.

wagtunes · Post by **wagtunes** » Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:12 pm

Also, I just looked at the table of contents. There's ONE chapter on orchestration out of the whole 480 pages. The rest of the crap in it I don't care about.

BertKoor · Post by **BertKoor** » Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:17 pm

Get a list of all instruments expected to be in a "classical" show orchestra. Put that it in Excel and mark per bar whether that instrument is playing. This forces you to concentrate on the individual instruments.

Take one song as an example, not 36x12=432. Or do you expect yourself to be an AI / Neural Network that "simply" can be trained given enough input?

Orchestration / arranging is the art of weaving mainly monophonic instrumental melodies into a nice solid fabric. This is quite different from what rock / synth / pop bands do.

Maybe now is the time to study 4-piece counterpoint, that is at the basis to some extent.

Michael L · Post by **Michael L** » Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:37 pm

Yes I know only 1 chapter on arranging, but you can access that chapter thru a library. Musicals are different cuz songs are all danceable, so should be fun.

wagtunes · Post by **wagtunes** » Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:41 pm

BertKoor wrote: ↑Wed Sep 30, 2020 3:17 pm Get a list of all instruments expected to be in a "classical" show orchestra. Put that it in Excel and mark per bar whether that instrument is playing. This forces you to concentrate on the individual instruments.

How do I know if the instrument is playing or not? I'm assuming you want me to listen to a piece and then mark off each instrument I hear in the spreadsheet.

That's my problem. Outside of the top line lead instrument, I can't make out what instruments are playing, especially when it sounds like there are a lot of them. In the more sparse parts, sure, maybe I can notice a trombone sticking out at the low end or a tuba, or maybe a flute fluttering in the background. But when the sound gets full, it just sounds like one big mess to me.

The only thing I'm really good at identifying is strings because I've worked with them so much in pop arrangements. But brass and woodwinds, forget it. Sometimes it's hard to even tell the difference between a sax trio and a trumpet section. Especially when they're playing together.

Need Help With Broadway Musical Project