KVR Audio

jcub · Post by **jcub** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 1:50 am

“Backwards And Forwards” has an unusual beginning that morphs in a jazz quintet arrangement with piano, NS Stick, LinnStrument (trumpet and sax), and Zendrum.

https://soundcloud.com/jeremycubert/backwards-forwards

ChameleonMusic · Post by **ChameleonMusic** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 1:13 pm

Great jam session - nice playing on the Linn...I've only tried one once and did NOT get on with it...maybe I should try it again as it is clearly capable of a lot of expression! I just found it so totally different from the piano - more like finger drumming on my darabuka!

My only issue with the track (enjoyed it) was the short intro...might it be better without? Not sure...no biggy either way.

LINN question - does it do full Polyphonic Aftertouch?

jcub · Post by **jcub** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 4:50 pm

Thank you! I went back and forth on the intro. I think the song would work without it but it adds an element of surprise. I might consider a less surprising and more genre appropriate intro.

jcub · Post by **jcub** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:03 pm

Just realized I didn't answer your Linnstrument question! It is fully polyphonic aftertouch which is part of its multidimensional polyphonic expression or MPE protocol. MPE is also found in other controllers like the Roli Seaboard, Sensel Morph, Continuum etc. This permits expression in 5 "dimensions" - velocity, pressure (aftertouch), glide (pitch bend), slide (up and down), and lift (velocity release) when using an MPE compatible sound source.

The Linnstrument has 8 rows which can be thought of as "strings" tuned in fourths. As a Stick player, I was immediately attracted to it because it is tuned identically to the melody side of a Stick with the added bonus of being able to play more than one note per "string." The MPE part is especially useful when you want to emulate a steel string guitar or use poly aftertouch on CS80 patches like Vangelis and also bend individual notes.

However, I mainly use it as a lead instrument. The fact you can access pitch bend by simply morning your finger left or right means you don't have to use a separate hand on a wheel or lever. You can also access modulation just by rocking your finger up and down. The sax and trumpet sounds in this piece are from Audio Modeling's SWAM instruments - they work exceptionally well with Linnstrument. Since they are monophonic, you are not using the polyphonic features of MPE - just the expression advantages.

You know most of this since you tried it. When I demoed it at NAMM for the Roger Linn booth a few years back, new players initially treated it like a piano keyboard. Once they realized you can slide notes right and left and up and down and got the concept of the rows as "strings" you could almost see the light bulb go off. I used it on nearly every piece in place of a lead synth or other lead instrument. On some pieces I take advantage of being able to slide individual notes in a chord around. However, I have played piano since age 7 - I use a standard keyboard for piano and organ. Here is the demo I did for Roger from a few years back - I have (hopefully) improved my technique since then but this gives you an idea of the range of sounds. I have had some great constructive criticism from wind and string players and have worked to improve my technique.

If you search on YouTube, there are folks like Stephen Barnard who have developed great two-handed technique and take advantage of the isomorphic layout of the Linnstrument in that context:

I met Steve in person and we jammed - one of the few times I have been able to play with other Linnstrument players. Super nice guy and great player.

It is a great instrument to explore and opened up new avenues for me. Also, if you have any issues or questions you deal directly with Roger. He is one of the nicest people you will ever interact with or meet.

ChameleonMusic · Post by **ChameleonMusic** » Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:43 pm

jcub wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 11:03 pm Just realized I didn't answer your Linnstrument question! It is fully polyphonic aftertouch which is part of its multidimensional polyphonic expression or MPE protocol. MPE is also found in other controllers like the Roli Seaboard, Sensel Morph, Continuum etc. This permits expression in 5 "dimensions" - velocity, pressure (aftertouch), glide (pitch bend), slide (up and down), and lift (velocity release) when using an MPE compatible sound source.

The Linnstrument has 8 rows which can be thought of as "strings" tuned in fourths. As a Stick player, I was immediately attracted to it because it is tuned identically to the melody side of a Stick with the added bonus of being able to play more than one note per "string." The MPE part is especially useful when you want to emulate a steel string guitar or use poly aftertouch on CS80 patches like Vangelis and also bend individual notes.

However, I mainly use it as a lead instrument. The fact you can access pitch bend by simply morning your finger left or right means you don't have to use a separate hand on a wheel or lever. You can also access modulation just by rocking your finger up and down. The sax and trumpet sounds in this piece are from Audio Modeling's SWAM instruments - they work exceptionally well with Linnstrument. Since they are monophonic, you are not using the polyphonic features of MPE - just the expression advantages.

You know most of this since you tried it. When I demoed it at NAMM for the Roger Linn booth a few years back, new players initially treated it like a piano keyboard. Once they realized you can slide notes right and left and up and down and got the concept of the rows as "strings" you could almost see the light bulb go off. I used it on nearly every piece in place of a lead synth or other lead instrument. On some pieces I take advantage of being able to slide individual notes in a chord around. However, I have played piano since age 7 - I use a standard keyboard for piano and organ. Here is the demo I did for Roger from a few years back - I have (hopefully) improved my technique since then but this gives you an idea of the range of sounds. I have had some great constructive criticism from wind and string players and have worked to improve my technique.

If you search on YouTube, there are folks like Stephen Barnard who have developed great two-handed technique and take advantage of the isomorphic layout of the Linnstrument in that context:

I met Steve in person and we jammed - one of the few times I have been able to play with other Linnstrument players. Super nice guy and great player.

It is a great instrument to explore and opened up new avenues for me. Also, if you have any issues or questions you deal directly with Roger. He is one of the nicest people you will ever interact with or meet.

Many thanks for that detailed response - really helpful as I'm definitely looking around for something to use as well as my keyboards!

Yamaha fully weighted piano + my Komplete 61 with that wonderful Fatar semi-weighted bed + my trusty old Quadrasynth which I've kept purely for its Poly Aftertouch!

Yes, like you I've played the piano since childhood, but I think I might be able to get used to the 'new' approach with a bit of intense practice to begin with...certainly the layout made sense to me, but, yes I was probably treating it more like a keyboard in terms of my technique in the brief time I tried it....just 20 mins.

At the moment I have a pretty decent left hand technique using pitch bend, mod wheel and ribbon slide for live expression, but it's never 100% and I do end up editing / automating quite a lot...the Linn might make it all a little more intuitive with practice!?

Watched the videos - impressed...I was a trumpet player by trade some years ago (trying to get back into practice at the moment - bloody hard work) so i do appreciate the expression / articulations etc...in the mix I think they are pretty musical and effective...solo'd...the sample modelling is just a little lacking in nuance at times, but still very good to listen to!

Thanks again!

jcub · Post by **jcub** » Tue Dec 08, 2020 12:28 am

I think the Linnstrument is more intuitive than using wheels, lever, and ribbons and I am guessing you will have no problem adapting. You have much better control - especially for longer slides (think the opening clarinet line from Rhapsody in Blue). Practice might be needed to adapt to the guitar/string instrument layout if you don't already play a stringed instrument. For me it was analogous to the seeing an HD TV for the first time - the nuance of the control is much better. Roger and Geert Bevins (who did the coding for the Linnstrument operating system) spent a lot of time working on playability and it shows. I have one of the smaller Roli Seaboards and it is very nice (great for expressive chords) but the pitch bending on Linnstrument is much easier in my view.

One of my goals is to create patches with physical modeled instruments for expressive lead instruments that does not necessarily get directly compared to real instruments like a sax, trumpet or violin. For example, Michael Brecker had a very unique voice on the EWI and nobody thought he was trying to imitate a sax - it was just another expressive instrument that he mastered. And he did things on the EWI you can't do on a sax. Understandably, players and listeners of the real instruments find that the physically modeled versions don't quite measure up.

Sample Modeling split into two companies - Sample Modeling and Audio Modeling. I am currently using the Audio Modeling plug ins (SWAM instruments) and they get better with every iteration. In my view, they are the best for expression even if they might sacrifice some authenticity when compared to straight samples. I find that to generally be the case with physical modeling vs sampled instruments although both categories have made great strides. Sampled instruments have added modeling features and the physically modeled instruments sound more authentic than they used to just a few years ago.

ChameleonMusic · Post by **ChameleonMusic** » Tue Dec 08, 2020 11:28 am

I think the Linnstrument is more intuitive than using wheels, lever, and ribbons and I am guessing you will have no problem adapting.

I think I agree! Adapting will be up to me and I'm NOT afraid of putting the hours in!

Practice might be needed to adapt to the guitar/string instrument layout if you don't already play a stringed instrument

I own and can do the very basics on an acoustic guitar, so I should get that pretty quickly...hopefully!

In my view, they are the best for expression even if they might sacrifice some authenticity when compared to straight samples

Agreed! The expression is often excellent...the authenticity doesn't really bother me...I just think about them as instruments in their own right! That's the way I've always looked at MIDI based work as aiming for full authenticity is never going to hack it with with me after so many years playing with bands and orchestras. They are all just interesting new sound sources, some of which are based on real world instruments.

Modelling learning from sample libraries and vice versa - I think you're right and that has to be a good thing as both have strengths and weaknesses.

Many thanks for the extra info - it does help inform my decision.

CrystalWizard · Post by **CrystalWizard** » Tue Dec 08, 2020 9:20 pm

Wow, that’s cool. Great stuff.

Bansaw · Post by **Bansaw** » Thu Dec 10, 2020 1:34 am

Like the brass.

jcub · Post by **jcub** » Thu Dec 10, 2020 6:33 pm

Thanks!

StudioDave · Post by **StudioDave** » Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:53 pm

Oh, that's outstanding, sweet stuff all around, great tune and arrangement, top solo work.

A solid sender.

dp

jcub · Post by **jcub** » Fri Dec 11, 2020 8:12 pm

Thanks for the kind words!

“Backwards And Forwards” (Jazz-ish)