Is it always necessary to follow Music Theory rules?

[Melkor]

Most songwriters who don't know much theory, DO tend to stick with known theoretical ideas, ie Kurt Cobain knew SFA about theory, but most of his songs will do some form of V-I at the turnaround for the 2nd verse etc.

Conversely, Im pretty sure that Trent Reznor knows his way around a piano and should know a fair amount of required theory to go with that...
But "Closer" is not diatonic at all:

Intro - C7
Chorus - F5 - Bb5 B5
Post - E F G Ab
Bridge - E5
Bridge2 - Cm motifs
Outro melody - a g - g f# - f e - Bb a c

[Jafo]

Of course it's necessary. That's why you only hear Gregorian and other forms of chant, and why 7th chords don't exist, only men make music, and why the only polyphony allowed is parallel perfect fifths, perfect fourths, and octaves.

[Jafo]

In short, no. Unless you're being graded.

[digitalboytn]

I was imprisoned for two years in a minimum security prison for reckless use of parallel fifths. I’m still on parole :

Consider yourself lucky because you got off extremely lightly...

The use of parallel fifths is a capital offence in some jurisdictions

[Dirtgrain]

I was imprisoned for two years in a minimum security prison for reckless use of parallel fifths. I’m still on parole

Oh dang, I thought we were talking about the Fourth.

[ChameleonMusic]

“. . . you’re going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view. . . . The truth is often what we make of it; you heard what you wanted to hear, believed what you wanted to believe. . . . If you define yourself by the [music theory rules], the desire to [follow them], to [understand them], then you have nothing. . . . [The Ear] is what gives a [musician] his power. [It must become one with the] energy field, created by all living things, [that] surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together. . . . Use the [Ear].”

Dude that's sort of deep, especially as it reveals so much about you and your approach to music rather than me and mine...

you’re going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view. . . . The truth is often what we make of it;

Swings both ways without a doubt!

If you define yourself by the [music theory rules], the desire to [follow them], to [understand them], then you have nothing

I don't define myself by any one thing in my long experience as a musician...you clearly do...by your utter rejection of certain possibilities and utter reliance on just one aspect.

I say again - there are NO MUSIC THEORY RULES...never have been...just extra possibilities and opportunities to expand your musical experience.

[The Ear] is what gives a [musician] his power.

Agreed! Doh! Stating the obvious, but...

Every single person who's ever doodled at a piano, twanged through the 6 strings on a guitar for 5 mins, picked up a beater and experimented across the wooden notes of a xylophone has studied a little bit of music theory - no exceptions.

They may not have done it formally or deliberately, but they have studied it none-the-less.

How much music theory each individual musician needs is entirely up to them and those they musically collaborate with, but NONE of them (not a single one) can effectively take part in musical activities without at least some knowledge of it.

(Used this before (had this debate so many times):
Had a kid in a class once who picked up an acoustic guitar for the very first time...
He messed around for about 15 mins and came up with a great little tune - catchy and quirky.
We briefly chatted about how he'd created it...these are HIS words:

"I experimented. Couldn't really do much, bloody strings don't half hurt ya fingers, sir.
jumped about a bit and found it sounded crap. Tried little steps instead and the tune suddenly clicked with just a big jump at the end after a repeat."

That pupil was totally inexperienced, but was already using music theory without even realising it...

Successful melodic construction generally involves lots of small steps and occasional larger leaps. It also involves a significant amount of repetition of ideas!

For me, you simply have a view of music theory that is way too narrow...you just don't understand it at all and how you've been using it yourself over the years!

For the record:

Yeah, I have classical training / significant music theory knowledge...got a degree in the subject!

But I'm also self-taught at the piano, djembe, udu, drum kit, bass guitar + a few others... have performed with Gamelan, traditional Indian, Vietnamese and Japanese musicians (all of whom play incredibly skilfully by ear but are steeped in music theory)! I have played in a rock band...by ear...free jazz...by ear...jazz combo...by ear. I can listen to a 3 minutes pop song once and then play it back to ya pretty damn accurately...

My approach towards music is NOT narrow and restricted by anything! My mind is open...yours is sadly closed to extra possibilities because of your fear that even a little bit more knowledge may somehow undermine your creative freedom...can you hear how crazy that sounds!?

[ChameleonMusic]

In answer to the question if it is always necessary to follow the music theory rules...

The answer is absolutely ...100%

If you deviate just one little bit from the rules that are set in stone,your computer will sense that there has been an error made and it will shut down as a safety measure...

In extreme cases if you stray too far from the music theory rules,your computer will blow up....

But if you are using a pencil and manuscript paper,you will be OK

Dude - don't use the pencil and manuscript imagery...soooooo old and sad... and wherever you are in the debate, it doesn't say anything positive about your understanding of what music theory actually is!

The only answer is: there are no music theory rules, just extra possibilities that everyone can use, ignore, adapt as they wish!

[ChameleonMusic]

I was imprisoned for two years in a minimum security prison for reckless use of parallel fifths. I’m still on parole :

Consider yourself lucky because you got off extremely lightly...

The use of parallel fifths is a capital offence in some jurisdictions

Oh God...the parallel fifths trope as well as pencil and manuscript...I just can't think of anything polite to say...

Your lack of understanding of music theory (and comedy) is exemplary!

I would list all the examples of the use of parallel fifths (and fourths) in professional music over 100s of years, but I can't be arsed. I could list all the people who've used that line in these debates over the years and think that nobody else ever thought of it...but again, what's the point!

[ChameleonMusic]

Most songwriters who don't know much theory, DO tend to stick with known theoretical ideas, ie Kurt Cobain knew SFA about theory, but most of his songs will do some form of V-I at the turnaround for the 2nd verse etc.

Conversely, Im pretty sure that Trent Reznor knows his way around a piano and should know a fair amount of required theory to go with that...
But "Closer" is not diatonic at all:

Intro - C7
Chorus - F5 - Bb5 B5
Post - E F G Ab
Bridge - E5
Bridge2 - Cm motifs
Outro melody - a g - g f# - f e - Bb a c

Actually Cobain wasn't actually that bad at all and was learning more and more all the time (probably subconsciously by just doing...like so many others) especially after his association with Butch Vig on Nevermind.

And before someone says that's probably what drove him over the edge "too much music theory"...just don't!

[ChameleonMusic]

That's it, I'm outta here...made my point and MOVING ON!

Too many silly, anachronistic, ignorant attitudes towards music theory and what it actually is...f**king annoying and really sad!

The idea that a little bit of extra knowledge about something is going to somehow undermine your creative freedom is such a pile of uninformed 'wank'. Think about it - oh my God if I know more about some of the ideas and possibilities that have formed around music over 100s of years I'm going to be less of a musician...makes no fuckin' sense whatsoever...what are you afraid of?

Had so many of these debates and I've decided that this will be the very last one...

Unsubscribed!

[SneakyBeats]

It's not necessary to follow the rules, but it's advisable to know the rules you're breaking

[fmr]

I was imprisoned for two years in a minimum security prison for reckless use of parallel fifths. I’m still on parole :

Consider yourself lucky because you got off extremely lightly...

The use of parallel fifths is a capital offence in some jurisdictions

And those who write things like this (even as a joke) know nothing about what is "Music Theory"

[Dirtgrain]

My approach towards music is NOT narrow and restricted by anything! My mind is open...yours is sadly closed to extra possibilities because of your fear that even a little bit more knowledge may somehow undermine your creative freedom...can you hear how crazy that sounds!?

I was just goofing around with some Obi-wan quotes, but I stand by the essence of it, and I don't think it implies what you suggest. It does not denounce music theory--only the mindset that one must be bound to it. It also implies that without an ear, music theory is worthless for a composer.

[Dirtgrain]

That's it, I'm outta here...made my point and MOVING ON!

Too many silly, anachronistic, ignorant attitudes towards music theory and what it actually is...f**king annoying and really sad!

The idea that a little bit of extra knowledge about something is going to somehow undermine your creative freedom is such a pile of uninformed 'wank'. Think about it - oh my God if I know more about some of the ideas and possibilities that have formed around music over 100s of years I'm going to be less of a musician...makes no fuckin' sense whatsoever...what are you afraid of?

Had so many of these debates and I've decided that this will be the very last one...

Unsubscribed!

Oh.

[Tricky-Loops]

My impression is that academically classically trained musicians like Michael Crețu ("Enigma") have an advantage over those who don't know any music theory. So studying music isn't useless!

On the other hand, having a palette of colors doesn't make you a great painter, so creativity is important, too. Not only painting by numbers.