bit of a rant about devs, and international sales....

[PieBerger]

For example, surely if you went to Germany and bought a physical, boxed software product, then took it back on the plane to the US, you'd pay German VAT..So same with downloads?

In the UK at least, as a US or EU citizen you can request a VAT 407 receipt from the retailer and then apply for a VAT refund at UK customs before you leave the country. A quick Google search confirms that a similar scheme exists for purchases made in Germany for non-EU residents. Imports of musical instruments are still subject to VAT at UK customs (this may differ in other countries), but you don't get a free pass if you already paid it in Germany. If you didn't get your refund at German customs you'd end up paying VAT twice.

That's for physical goods, digital services, provided under certain conditions, of which most plugin vendors meet, are VAT exempt in the UK and as such UK customers should not be charged VAT from EU developers.

Edit: I could well be wrong about the digital services bit and welcome any corrections from those better informed on the subject.

[kovacs]

In Norway you need to pay 25% VAT also on services and products bought on foreign websites. This is implemented on major sites like Amazon etc so you don't need to do anything. But on minor sites you are technically expected to report this to the tax authorities.

(Source: VOEC scheme on Norwegian Tax Authority)

[Lind0n]

As a developer in the UK let me say - I wish it was as simple as it seems on the surface.

So, yes, there are different ways of calculating tax, and different laws governing when that tax gets applied. All of these laws are up for "interpretation", but the EU rulings on VAT are convoluted and complex, but at certain times in certain rulings they have stated that VAT should be charged at the point of purchase. That's not where you live as a customer, but where the developer resides, so if the developer is in the EU then EU VAT needs to be applied, no matter where you or I as customers reside. It only gets worse from there, the next thing they decided was that not only should the dev. charge VAT in this way - but once I've collected your VAT I need to "know" where you reside, and if in the EU to send this VAT to the relevant tax collecting agency in that country - so 26 different tax collection points... For those outside the EU? Collect the VAT and return to the devs country of origin tax collectors - and let the buyer make a refund claim. So no escaping there.

As I say these are rulings and are open to interpretation and the rulings change all the time. It's a nightmare in the making, so nearly every developer goes with a revenue collection system that handles this (and many other) VAT issues for them, and these systems are less flexible that you or I might like, and they often apply VAT rulings in a very conservative way, sorry about that. But the alternative was to handle it all in-house and considerably increase the base price of products to cover these costs. It's a lose-lose game.

This was, by the way, one of the many many issues that the UK spent years and years banging on about being "broken" with their european friends in Brussels - they didnt listen so now I'm looking forward to a much simpler tax regime.

[revvy]

I'm looking forward to a much simpler tax regime.

Well, you certainly won't be able to blame foreigners for it anymore, that's for sure.

[PieBerger]

I'm looking forward to a much simpler tax regime.

Well, you certainly won't be able to blame foreigners for it anymore, that's for sure.

I'm sure it's going to much simpler for big companies to not pay any or as much, but a nightmare for small business and the self-employed

[chk071]

In theory you can get back that VAT. You need to apply to the European tax authority... (Don’t ask me how, ask Google...)

That's what I'd do then.

[Lind0n]

I'm looking forward to a much simpler tax regime.

Well, you certainly won't be able to blame foreigners for it anymore, that's for sure.

-- you've met the British right?

[revvy]

I'm looking forward to a much simpler tax regime.

Well, you certainly won't be able to blame foreigners for it anymore, that's for sure.

-- you've met the British right?

Yes, intimately

[Ploki]

VAT is theft... Disguised as a tax. No one in the EU like paying for it...

what are you, 15?

OP:
same vendors usually don't offer VAT exempt sales, so even if you own a business and could do it as a business expense (VAT-exempt) you can't.
it's a piss poor system, and seeing USA and also bussiness is not a market to neglect, i really don't understand how can they just roll with that.

[bmanic]

VAT is a good thing. I guess a discussion about that would rather be material for the HPC forum though...

It depends on one's perspective... If your based in Germany, then you're probably paying a much fairer rate. However, being based in Ireland we are paying way more VAT then most (and we are essentially bankrupt due to our sleazy politicians, banks and EU interest rate).

But as you say, it's a separate topic in itself.

.. that's hardly the fault of a system like VAT then is it?

Wish people would put their hate and ire against the actual problems and not the ideas themselves.

Having said that, the amount of bureaucracy and sheer sillyness surrounding VAT and how to manage it, especially with internet global sales, is horrific. The execution of it all is almost designed as to be as inflexible and confusing as possible, on purpose. So yeah, I like the idea of a value added tax but the pure technicalities of how to report for it and where you can apply it is piss poor, at least here in Finland.

[Lind0n]

VAT, and similar taxes (like GST in Australia) are consumption taxes, and thus theoretically are ideologically "left of centre" (if such naming even applies these days) - in that the more you consume(spend) the more tax you pay, so rich people - who theoretically spend more - would pay more. The problem with this model is that it holds about as well Thatcherite trickle-down-economics, in that it doesn't actually work in practice. Rich people generally didn't get rich by throwing money around, so as a percentage of the net worth they spend less than poor people...some governments attempt to ameliorate this by making some basics (like food and children's clothes) consumption tax exempt and this is where it suddenly gets complicated - is caviar food? should it be tax exempt? - well you get the picture...sorry this is straying WAAY off anything to do with "Instruments"

[Ploki]

It's just easier to simply tax income (progressively) in the first place, it's going to get spent anyway

[Ploki]

Ah, disappearing quotes, thanks for age confirmation

[Effectsworks]

Ah, disappearing quotes, thanks for age confirmation

oh I'm 14 alright.

But I just decided I don't really want to get into an argument. What's the point after all?

[Ploki]

If you think VAT is theft - in the mids of a global health crisis no less, where strong public healthcare has proven as one of the best ways to combat it - then there really is no point, no.