bit of a rant about devs, and international sales....

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
User avatar
KVRAF
3122 posts since 12 May, 2011 from Albion

Post Wed Jan 20, 2021 3:10 pm

Held wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 10:01 am
Erisian wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 8:09 am
Excuse my ignorance, but what does the "Value" in "Value Added Tax" refer to? It seems to me, it's just added on without there being any change in the actual value of the product.
It taxes the value added to the resources by the company during production. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surplus_value
My phone company has recently informed me that vat will now be added to the cancellation fee. So now, if I cancel my contract early, I have to pay tax on the fee. Where is the value in that? Government gotta tax, it is what they do. With barbers being closed again, maybe Boris will re-introduce the beard tax.
BitChute
SoundCloud
What is life without a little whimsy?

KVRist
306 posts since 3 Jan, 2020

Post Wed Jan 20, 2021 3:20 pm

I was just explaining where the name comes from. Sometimes things change or are applied to things that differ from where the name originally comes from. If you wanna bitch about taxes, please leave me out of it :)

User avatar
KVRAF

Topic Starter

1964 posts since 29 Apr, 2010 from NYC

Post Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:09 pm

i stepped away from this as i didnt want to start fighting with people.

just so were all clear. i have no issue with vat. or taxes. my issue is that as a us resident i am not subject to paying vat charges...and if i do pay them...then its just extra money the dev gets to keep. not to mention that its not insignificant either, the vat charges for the bundle i wanted to buy come to nearly 50 usd. i didnt give the name of the dev, because they are a very small newish dev, with only a few niche type plugins available. id be surprised if anyone not into a specific kind of music (that im also not going to say) would have even heard of them. they are more an artist who has a few plugins available than a plugin developer.

and also so were clear...this isnt a case of complicated tax formulas or anything...its very simple:

eu seller + non eu buyer = no vat

thats it...end of story.

in no way do i feel like the dev is intentionally trying to rip non eu customers off...but i find it concerning that after being made aware of the problem...they seem pretty nonchalant about it.

the notion that its too difficult to fix or its just not important enough is insane to me. i find it difficult to believe that any of you would be ok with having to pay an extra $50 for something simply because the payment service provider doesnt know how to provide proper payment services. which one of you is going into a store and just letting them charge you extra $$ because the checkout person doesnt know how to use the register?

i mean come on... a software dev selling digital goods to people all over the world in 2021...how is it even possible they cant work out how to charge people the correct amount of money?
ImageImageImage

Rad Grandad
33108 posts since 6 Sep, 2003 from Downeast Maine

Post Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:23 pm

Ploki wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:06 am
i thought VAT was the topic
then it should be an hpc topic...if we are going to talk about VAT that is where it will go, if we want to talk about how chaos can work around this that might be another story.
in my place

User avatar
Banned
10240 posts since 12 Mar, 2012 from the Bavarian Alps to my feet and the globe around my head

Post Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:28 pm

But there are so many thousands of plugins and many vendors even in the United States, then I would choose a better one which doesn't keep VAT :!:
Tricky-Loops has left KVR because of erratic moderators. Thanks for all amazing people who helped me and were good to me. Good luck!

KVRAF
2516 posts since 15 Feb, 2020

Post Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:33 pm

chaosWyrM wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:09 pm
i stepped away from this as i didnt want to start fighting with people.

just so were all clear. i have no issue with vat. or taxes. my issue is that as a us resident i am not subject to paying vat charges...and if i do pay them...then its just extra money the dev gets to keep. not to mention that its not insignificant either, the vat charges for the bundle i wanted to buy come to nearly 50 usd. i didnt give the name of the dev, because they are a very small newish dev, with only a few niche type plugins available. id be surprised if anyone not into a specific kind of music (that im also not going to say) would have even heard of them. they are more an artist who has a few plugins available than a plugin developer.

and also so were clear...this isnt a case of complicated tax formulas or anything...its very simple:

eu seller + non eu buyer = no vat

thats it...end of story.

in no way do i feel like the dev is intentionally trying to rip non eu customers off...but i find it concerning that after being made aware of the problem...they seem pretty nonchalant about it.

the notion that its too difficult to fix or its just not important enough is insane to me. i find it difficult to believe that any of you would be ok with having to pay an extra $50 for something simply because the payment service provider doesnt know how to provide proper payment services. which one of you is going into a store and just letting them charge you extra $$ because the checkout person doesnt know how to use the register?

i mean come on... a software dev selling digital goods to people all over the world in 2021...how is it even possible they cant work out how to charge people the correct amount of money?
All fair enough.

In which case if it's that simple and the dev won't cooperate, find a different dev. As you said in OP, it's more of a rant than looking for a solution with that particular dev.
Last edited by revvy on Wed Jan 20, 2021 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
FKA samsam. PMs from likely lecturers deleted without reading :party:

User avatar
KVRist
252 posts since 17 Sep, 2020

Post Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:58 pm

Tricky-Loops wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:28 pm
But there are so many thousands of plugins and many vendors even in the United States, then I would choose a better one which doesn't keep VAT :!:
But some of the best plugin devs are based in Europe. So it's not something you can always get away from.

My general strategy is go to the most reliable and cheapest places who usually offer decent discounts in cart (Audio Deluxe or JRR, etc). As the VAT is added (automatically) it will in turn be lower as the plugin in now cheaper. Of course you still have to pay VAT in the end but it takes the sting out of it.

User avatar
GRRRRRRR!
11212 posts since 14 Jun, 2001 from Somewhere else, on principle

Post Wed Jan 20, 2021 8:29 pm

Effectsworks wrote:
Tue Jan 19, 2021 3:38 pm
VAT is theft... Disguised as a tax. No one in the EU like paying for it... :(
Taxing people on what they spend makes a lot more sense to me than paying tax based on what they earn. Rich people's accountants are very good at avoiding income tax but consumption taxes are generally much harder to avoid, which makes them much fairer.

Anyway, I've never encountered this problem. I've either paid no tax or, more recently, paid just the 10% GST that we pay on everything in Australia.
NOVAkILL : Dell G7 Core i7, 32GB RAM, Win10, Zoom U24 | Studio One | Thorn, bx_oberhausen, ARP Odyssey, JP6K, Hexeract, Vacuum Pro, TRK-01, Knifonium, Equator, VG Carbon, VG Iron | Uno, Analog Keys, Ultranova, Rocket.

User avatar
KVRian
964 posts since 2 Oct, 2016 from Planet X-19

Post Wed Jan 20, 2021 11:22 pm

Except consumption taxes affect the lowest earners disproportionately as they tend to spend all their income.

KVRAF
6048 posts since 14 Nov, 2006 from Ankara, Turkey

Post Thu Jan 21, 2021 3:02 am

chaosWyrM wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:09 pm
and also so were clear...this isnt a case of complicated tax formulas or anything...its very simple:

eu seller + non eu buyer = no vat

thats it...end of story.
As a NON-EU developer, I wholeheartedly support that +

non eu seller + eu buyer = No VAT

This has been the main reason I refused to work with payment processors like 2checkout & fastspring.
Works at KV331 Audio
SynthMaster voted #1 in MusicRadar's "Best Synth of 2019" poll
SynthMaster One voted #4 in MusicRadar's "Best Synth of 2019" poll

User avatar
Banned
10240 posts since 12 Mar, 2012 from the Bavarian Alps to my feet and the globe around my head

Post Thu Jan 21, 2021 4:11 am

kv331 wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 3:02 am
chaosWyrM wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:09 pm
and also so were clear...this isnt a case of complicated tax formulas or anything...its very simple:

eu seller + non eu buyer = no vat

thats it...end of story.
As a NON-EU developer, I wholeheartedly support that +

non eu seller + eu buyer = No VAT

This has been the main reason I refused to work with payment processors like 2checkout & fastspring.
But that should be the task of a professional payment processing service that everyone is treated with tax or not with tax depending on the country he/she is living. Otherwhise why would you need a professional payment processing service (and I assume it costs some money, too) when they haven't even implemented the basics of every tax system :?:
Tricky-Loops has left KVR because of erratic moderators. Thanks for all amazing people who helped me and were good to me. Good luck!

User avatar
KVRist
200 posts since 2 Feb, 2005 from UK

Post Thu Jan 21, 2021 4:37 am

chaosWyrM wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:09 pm
i stepped away from this as i didnt want to start fighting with people.

just so were all clear. i have no issue with vat. or taxes. my issue is that as a us resident i am not subject to paying vat charges...
That's your opinion - the eu governing body disagrees with you.
chaosWyrM wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:09 pm
and if i do pay them...then its just extra money the dev gets to keep. not to mention that its not insignificant either, the vat charges for the bundle i wanted to buy come to nearly 50 usd. i didnt give the name of the dev, because they are a very small newish dev, with only a few niche type plugins available. id be surprised if anyone not into a specific kind of music (that im also not going to say) would have even heard of them. they are more an artist who has a few plugins available than a plugin developer.
Except the dev DOESNT get to keep it - if they collect VAT they must hand it over to the tax collecting agency in their country - otherwise they are breaking the law in their country.

chaosWyrM wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:09 pm
and also so were clear...this isnt a case of complicated tax formulas or anything...its very simple:

eu seller + non eu buyer = no vat

thats it...end of story.
except thats not the formula, so not end of story, to simplify to your formulas level of detail, it actually looks like this:

eu seller = location of point of sale = tax rule = MUST charge VAT regardless of the buyers location.
chaosWyrM wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 5:09 pm
in no way do i feel like the dev is intentionally trying to rip non eu customers off...but i find it concerning that after being made aware of the problem...they seem pretty nonchalant about it.

the notion that its too difficult to fix or its just not important enough is insane to me. i find it difficult to believe that any of you would be ok with having to pay an extra $50 for something simply because the payment service provider doesnt know how to provide proper payment services. which one of you is going into a store and just letting them charge you extra $$ because the checkout person doesnt know how to use the register?

i mean come on... a software dev selling digital goods to people all over the world in 2021...how is it even possible they cant work out how to charge people the correct amount of money?
Just think about it for a minute - they have no idea where in the world you are. They are not (in the end) selling to "people" they are selling to a machine, which has an IP address - which could be routed through any VPN - you could be in Birmingham Alabama or Birmingham UK and they have no way of knowing. For example - you tell me where I am? Any ideas? They could ask you where you are, and having a system where they ask would end up with a vast majority of customers falsely claiming to be in tax exempt locations. Their local tax collectors would take a dim view of this approach.

You seem to have a very naive view of how tax works, how international law works and even how the internet works.

I assure you as a developer selling digital goods in the world I dont take tax collection in a nonchalant manner - I, like you, am bound by a set of rules and laws - which when you buy from an eu supplier are the rules being applied to them in their location - not you in yours - even if I wanted to do something about it (which I gladly would) I basically am stuck with it.
VST/AU Developer for Hire

User avatar
Beware the Quoth
29290 posts since 4 Sep, 2001 from R'lyeh Oceanic Amusement Park and Funfair

Post Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:08 am

Erisian wrote:
Wed Jan 20, 2021 8:09 am
Excuse my ignorance, but what does the "Value" in "Value Added Tax" refer to? It seems to me, it's just added on without there being any change in the actual value of the product.
Its a tax on the value. According to t'wikipedia the distinction is that it gets added incrementally at each point of production, distribution, or sale.

So different from a sales tax, that only gets added at the point of sale.
John Titor died for your sins!

User avatar
Banned
10240 posts since 12 Mar, 2012 from the Bavarian Alps to my feet and the globe around my head

Post Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:26 am

Lind0n wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 4:37 am
except thats not the formula, so not end of story, to simplify to your formulas level of detail, it actually looks like this:

eu seller = location of point of sale = tax rule = MUST charge VAT regardless of the buyers location.
From the website about VAT from the EU:

"The Value Added Tax, or VAT, in the European Union is a general, broadly based consumption tax assessed on the value added to goods and services. It applies more or less to all goods and services that are bought and sold for use or consumption in the European Union. Thus, goods which are sold for export or services which are sold to customers abroad are normally not subject to VAT."

"The place of taxation is determined by where the goods are supplied."

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/b ... -is-vat_en

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/b ... ere-tax_en
Tricky-Loops has left KVR because of erratic moderators. Thanks for all amazing people who helped me and were good to me. Good luck!

User avatar
Urs
u-he
25462 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin

Post Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:28 am

kv331 wrote:
Thu Jan 21, 2021 3:02 am
As a NON-EU developer, I wholeheartedly support that +

non eu seller + eu buyer = No VAT

This has been the main reason I refused to work with payment processors like 2checkout & fastspring.
I guess that's why the EU has banned payment processors as full service with shop and stuff. Instead, ShareIt & Co now act as resellers. But as global resellers have dependencies in many countries, the VAT in those countries applies as well. Additionally, some countries, like some states in the US, charge VAT on top, regardless of where you're selling from. In the US I would not for a blink get to the idea of circumventing such a tax.

Return to “Instruments”