bit of a rant about devs, and international sales....

VST, AU, AAX, etc. plug-in Virtual Instruments discussion
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addled muppet weed
76503 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass

Post Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:41 am

i didnt give the name of the dev, because they are a very small newish dev, with only a few niche type plugins available. id be surprised if anyone not into a specific kind of music (that im also not going to say) would have even heard of them. they are more an artist who has a few plugins available than a plugin developer


vat is a percentage of the overall cost.
so these seem quite expensive plug ins at the get go.
and this is at 25% off?

im intrigued!

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KVRist
200 posts since 2 Feb, 2005 from UK

Post Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:12 am

Tricky-Loops wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:26 am
Lind0n wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 21, 2021 4:37 am
except thats not the formula, so not end of story, to simplify to your formulas level of detail, it actually looks like this:

eu seller = location of point of sale = tax rule = MUST charge VAT regardless of the buyers location.
From the website about VAT from the EU:

"The Value Added Tax, or VAT, in the European Union is a general, broadly based consumption tax assessed on the value added to goods and services. It applies more or less to all goods and services that are bought and sold for use or consumption in the European Union. Thus, goods which are sold for export or services which are sold to customers abroad are normally not subject to VAT."

"The place of taxation is determined by where the goods are supplied."

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/b ... -is-vat_en

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/b ... ere-tax_en
I stand corrected. If I know you are not from the eu I wont charge you VAT - now anyone want to tell me how I find out if a customer is NOT from the eu? (assuming we are not taking their word for it...)
VST/AU Developer for Hire

sjm
KVRAF
2052 posts since 17 Apr, 2004

Post Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:35 am

kv331 wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 21, 2021 3:02 am
As a NON-EU developer, I wholeheartedly support that +

non eu seller + eu buyer = No VAT

This has been the main reason I refused to work with payment processors like 2checkout & fastspring.
You are supposed to charge VAT to EU residents if you are based outside the EU.

This is why there's been a flourishing market for payment processors who will handle this, as most companies don't want to deal with it themselves.

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/i ... ervices_en
Buying electronically supplied services online if the seller is established outside the EU

When buying electronically supplied services online, VAT is due.

The seller will charge the VAT rate applicable in the country where you are established, have your permanent address or usually reside.

Example: If a private person residing in Sweden makes use of a Japanese on-line library, Swedish VAT will have to be paid on the amount the Japanese company charges.
Note the part about the seller charging the VAT, e.g. the Japanese company in the example. You can obviously substitute "Japanese" for "Turkish".

It might be a bit of a mess, but that's the way it is.
Voted KVR's resident drunk Robert Smith impersonator (thanks Frantz!)

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KVRAF
6048 posts since 14 Nov, 2006 from Ankara, Turkey

Post Thu Jan 21, 2021 8:50 am

sjm wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:35 am
Note the part about the seller charging the VAT, e.g. the Japanese company in the example. You can obviously substitute "Japanese" for "Turkish".

It might be a bit of a mess, but that's the way it is.
Yes I know that already. But then I'll have to raise prices in Europe / switch to Euro pricing -> 99 USD SynthMaster outside EU becomes 99 EUR inside EU. and I am just afraid that that would lower our revenue.
Works at KV331 Audio
SynthMaster voted #1 in MusicRadar's "Best Synth of 2019" poll
SynthMaster One voted #4 in MusicRadar's "Best Synth of 2019" poll

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KVRAF

Topic Starter

1964 posts since 29 Apr, 2010 from NYC

Post Thu Jan 21, 2021 12:31 pm

vurt wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:41 am
i didnt give the name of the dev, because they are a very small newish dev, with only a few niche type plugins available. id be surprised if anyone not into a specific kind of music (that im also not going to say) would have even heard of them. they are more an artist who has a few plugins available than a plugin developer


vat is a percentage of the overall cost.
so these seem quite expensive plug ins at the get go.
and this is at 25% off?

im intrigued!
it was for a bundle of all their plugins...6 in total i think.
ImageImageImage

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KVRAF

Topic Starter

1964 posts since 29 Apr, 2010 from NYC

Post Thu Jan 21, 2021 12:44 pm

Lind0n wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:12 am
Tricky-Loops wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:26 am
Lind0n wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 21, 2021 4:37 am
except thats not the formula, so not end of story, to simplify to your formulas level of detail, it actually looks like this:

eu seller = location of point of sale = tax rule = MUST charge VAT regardless of the buyers location.
From the website about VAT from the EU:

"The Value Added Tax, or VAT, in the European Union is a general, broadly based consumption tax assessed on the value added to goods and services. It applies more or less to all goods and services that are bought and sold for use or consumption in the European Union. Thus, goods which are sold for export or services which are sold to customers abroad are normally not subject to VAT."

"The place of taxation is determined by where the goods are supplied."

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/b ... -is-vat_en

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/b ... ere-tax_en
I stand corrected. If I know you are not from the eu I wont charge you VAT - now anyone want to tell me how I find out if a customer is NOT from the eu? (assuming we are not taking their word for it...)
i see you get what im saying now, so no need to respond to your first comment....as to your question in this one...i would imagine that whatever payment service you use should be taking care of that for you. as i mentioned...most places do this automatically and there isnt an issue, so its obviously possible.

as far as im concerned...charging vat to people who arent subject to it is tantamount to stealing.
ImageImageImage

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KVRAF

Topic Starter

1964 posts since 29 Apr, 2010 from NYC

Post Thu Jan 21, 2021 12:48 pm

Urs wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 21, 2021 6:28 am
kv331 wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 21, 2021 3:02 am
As a NON-EU developer, I wholeheartedly support that +

non eu seller + eu buyer = No VAT

This has been the main reason I refused to work with payment processors like 2checkout & fastspring.
I guess that's why the EU has banned payment processors as full service with shop and stuff. Instead, ShareIt & Co now act as resellers. But as global resellers have dependencies in many countries, the VAT in those countries applies as well. Additionally, some countries, like some states in the US, charge VAT on top, regardless of where you're selling from. In the US I would not for a blink get to the idea of circumventing such a tax.
out of curiosity....

what do you do with the vat you collect from non eu customers?
ImageImageImage

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KVRAF

Topic Starter

1964 posts since 29 Apr, 2010 from NYC

Post Thu Jan 21, 2021 1:01 pm

sjm wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:35 am



You are supposed to charge VAT to EU residents if you are based outside the EU.

true...but in reality, why would anyone bother? the eu has no jurisdiction outside the eu, they can not compel people living in other countries to do anything. technically....non eu businesses should have been collecting vat since '03, but they dont...because the eu cant enforce it.

if i was a dev selling plugins...i most certainly wouldn't bother figuring out how to collect vat from eu customers. the eu can sue me for it...except they cant.
ImageImageImage

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addled muppet weed
76503 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass

Post Thu Jan 21, 2021 1:24 pm

chaosWyrM wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 21, 2021 1:01 pm
sjm wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:35 am



You are supposed to charge VAT to EU residents if you are based outside the EU.

true...but in reality, why would anyone bother? the eu has no jurisdiction outside the eu, they can not compel people living in other countries to do anything. technically....non eu businesses should have been collecting vat since '03, but they dont...because the eu cant enforce it.

if i was a dev selling plugins...i most certainly wouldn't bother figuring out how to collect vat from eu customers. the eu can sue me for it...except they cant.
maybe that's why eu devs are forced to charge it, to make up the shortfall of all the tax dodgers doing business here illegally :o

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KVRAF

Topic Starter

1964 posts since 29 Apr, 2010 from NYC

Post Thu Jan 21, 2021 2:01 pm

vurt wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 21, 2021 1:24 pm
chaosWyrM wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 21, 2021 1:01 pm
sjm wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:35 am



You are supposed to charge VAT to EU residents if you are based outside the EU.

true...but in reality, why would anyone bother? the eu has no jurisdiction outside the eu, they can not compel people living in other countries to do anything. technically....non eu businesses should have been collecting vat since '03, but they dont...because the eu cant enforce it.

if i was a dev selling plugins...i most certainly wouldn't bother figuring out how to collect vat from eu customers. the eu can sue me for it...except they cant.
maybe that's why eu devs are forced to charge it, to make up the shortfall of all the tax dodgers doing business here illegally :o
but...they arent forced to charge it. they arent supposed to charge it at all...hence this entire thread.

and no one is tax dodging anything or doing anything illegal at all (well...except maybe the devs who are illegally collecting tax money they arent supposed to and pocketing it).
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addled muppet weed
76503 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass

Post Thu Jan 21, 2021 2:08 pm

how else are devs supposed to buy yachts?

Rad Grandad
33106 posts since 6 Sep, 2003 from Downeast Maine

Post Thu Jan 21, 2021 2:14 pm

vurt wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 21, 2021 2:08 pm
how else are devs supposed to buy yachts?
well you start by contacting a yacht broker...or me, I have a lovely boat to sell...hasn't been in the water since the 60's, 2 little holes in the side, good for at least 7 passengers, all their belongings and then some...we could patch up the holes and take a little tour on it, maybe 3 hours?
in my place

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KVRAF

Topic Starter

1964 posts since 29 Apr, 2010 from NYC

Post Thu Jan 21, 2021 2:15 pm

vurt wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 21, 2021 2:08 pm
how else are devs supposed to buy yachts?
hhmmm.....i hadnt thought of that.
:dog:
ImageImageImage

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addled muppet weed
76503 posts since 26 Jan, 2003 from through the looking glass

Post Thu Jan 21, 2021 2:21 pm

did you end up buying them or not?

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Urs
u-he
25462 posts since 8 Aug, 2002 from Berlin

Post Thu Jan 21, 2021 2:21 pm

chaosWyrM wrote: ↑
Thu Jan 21, 2021 12:48 pm
what do you do with the vat you collect from non eu customers?
It goes to the authorities that we (rather: our resellers) collect it for.

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